Is Evolution directionless/random?

I’m well aware of that, Charles, and have been arguing against the undue influence of this recent kid on the Evangelical block on Evolutionary Creation of the BioLogos variety for the last six years.

On the specific point, the issue that has never been adequately addressed is how on earth one can apply arguments about free will to the irrational creation… or if one does, why one does not also consider it immoral for humans to make things from raw material, cut down trees and other things that curtail the “free will” of nature.

Such ideas arose in the pantheistic and panentheistic presuppositions of process theology, which heavily influenced the previous generation of theistic evolutionist academics, where at least they make some sense.

So perhaps someone can answer in defence of openness theology: which part of nature has free will, and what motivates its decisions? How does it appreciate its freedom? Does God hold it accountable (and if not, what is different about our free will that makes us morally responsible for our free choices?)

Or else as open theist Karl Giberson once admitted, “freedom” in nature is nothing more than a metaphor for “ontological randomness”… which is where I came into this thread.

Our very existence proves that evolution has a purpose. From my point of view life is just the existence of the DNA system and the information that it contains. From this standpoint what we consider evolution of different physical forms of life is less important than that the DNA system continues to be sustained over time. This is a sustained ordered system over time. I think that Gods intent of His creation of the world is to increase the order over time which is essentially order x time of existence. Life and all matter are following this rule creating ordered states that are stable (survive) in a given environment. As life adapts to selective pressures it can develop the ability to control its environment and increase its survival by its self awareness and ability of thought. We are made in Gods image. So in this sense the evolution and Gods plan for us is to gain knowledge or the ability to gain knowledge that is contained in our DNA to sustain our existence. Evolution is more the information gained in the DNA to sustain its existence than the physical form of life per se. This ability is our spirit which is beyond the physical existence.

1 Like

As life support systems for human eyelash mites. :grin:

2 Likes

Just to help clarify my previous comment, the Second Temple Period is the historical era between the building of the post-exilic temple in Judea, and the First Jewish–Roman War of 66-73 CE.

I think we knew that. But we are also pretty sure that Robert Boyle’s preference for divine laws rather than Aristotelian natures had very little to do with second temple literature. And the Deists insisting on their inviolability certainly did not consult the Church Fathers.

Well that’s one way to try and change the subject while avoiding the point under discussion.

And that’s another. To remind you, the point I was addressing was your claim that “natural law” is just an invention of the early modern era.

Argon. So what’s the frequency Kenneth? Sorry. I don’t get your point?

Not being able to know everything is a given, but we can make assumptions based on the evidence we do have. So far, everything seems to have an order from Earth to the farthest our telescopes can see. Order lets us make at least generalized predictions, and through those, models. The more we know, the better those models. Models help us understand the order. So far even the most disordered things in nature have order. Stars have order. Black holes have order. Atomic particles have order. The space in between has order.

True randomness has no order. It cannot be predicted. Thus true randomness probably does not exist. Without order our universe would not be our universe. The working assumption has yet to be rejected by nature. I find that a satisfying answer.

Well… because the Deists were right about how badly the church defined nature. They saw order, not spontaneous generation or continuous miracles. They went to the extreme and gave reason for the “entire” church to reconsider its position. To reject the truth they generated is to go backwards. If truth can be found it will be found because it is part of the natural order. Rejecting natural order returns us to mysticism. The Bible repeatedly rejects that course, so I think that today’s Christians have a lot to learn from the Deists.

Does set laws of nature reject God from functioning in nature? I say no. That idea is based on ancient Greek philosophy not the Bible. God set the universe to run by setting laws. Those laws allow for systems that are nearly random thus producing variations. God does not have to make each star different, they just are different. However, that does not mean He could not nudge the process now and again to make sure a star forms and dies just at the right time for us to study it today.

Does the lack of true randomness dictate predestination and no free will? I say no. Our brains are made of the stuff of the universe, no different. Our brains function like any mammal. There is order to the process to make decisions. Most decisions are rather predictable. But natural order allows for variations. We choose between available options. We can think about the consequences of those options to make those choices. We can choose the worst option with the most detrimental consequence, just because we want to. Our next decision will be colored by our past experiences. Biblically, God desires us to choose good options, but He lets us make each choice. He never dictated predestination theology where we have no true choice.

Is evolution directionless? Yes and no. Evolution follows the order dictated by laws that allows for variation. Studying nature will not tell us if God wanted people that looked exactly like us or if He simply wanted an animal with a big enough brain to place His spirit. We might simply be the animal He chose from all the other possibilities. That does not mean He did not direct the process and tweak it now an again. A God who does not function in nature is based on an ancient Greek philosophy not the Bible.

2 Likes

Jo-Helen

Once again I agree with much of what you say, particularly about the non-existence of randomness, that is of the ontological variety. True randomness would be so unpredictable that it wouldn’t even form statistical distributions (unlike even quantum events, the classical example of individual events not thought to be caused by any physical laws).

Yet there is plenty we can’t predict because of our own human limitations, such as the behaviours of chaotic systems. Because of that, we can only make an assumption that they are, at heart, lawlike. If we trust the Scripture that says every decision of the lot is from the Lord, then chaotic systems, too, fall under the governance of providence as well as the laws of motion.

Your concession to the “tweaking” of things by God gives another major category of events that are unpredictable, but not ontologically random. Formally, however, an event caused by divine choice from “outside” the system of laws would appear random, except for the fact that it served God’s teleological purpose, for those willing or able to discern that… and scientists, of course, deliberately exclude final (teleological) causes from their methodology.

The fact that you agree that God may, validly, act upon nature in such unpredictable ways is all I was pleading for. The Deists denied such a “violation” of the regularity of nature was permissible to God, on pain of his rationality. Laws are generalisations drawn from repeatable patterns - what is not repeatable is happening for other reasons ordained by God in his freedom, not by chance in its chaos.

I would contest your justification of Deism, however:

Christians had long had a clear view of both the regularity and the contingency of nature - in that Jon Burke is quite correct (my dispute is on the categorisiation of this in terms of universal inviolable laws, rather than the mere obedience of creatures to their God-given natures). Spontaneous generation was a process espoused by both classical and Enlightenment science, not invented by the Church - the Deist Lamarck held to it long after it was called into question by Redi, and it was finally laid to rest as late as 1856 by the devout Catholic, Pasteur.

Mediaeval philosophy thoroughly grasped the regularity of nature (most often in Aristotelian terms of “natures”) - what Bacon and his successors achieved was the methodological empiricism that allowed the quantification of that regularity. The Deists did take that to extremes by insisting that the mechanical philosophy was all that there was. The Deist Leibniz criticized Newton for his belief that the Christian God would be active in nature. Leibniz’s ideal was perpetual motion.

Of course, studying nature will also not tell us if there is a God who functions in nature, and if so how much. Science, then, is just the wrong tool for understanding if God wanted people just like us (and anteaters or artichokes just like them). For that we need to return to the Bible - for example to Genesis describing the care which God took in forming us, or to Job in which God “boasts” of the particular traits of the ostrich he has made, or Jesus as he ascribes the clothing of the lilies to God’s sartorial excellence.

Science also, paradoxically, is incapable of telling us whether there is randomness in nature, other than its scientific definition as “unpredictable”, which of course many things are to scientists as to all human beings. The Bible suggests there is not, and philosophers like Plato or Aristotle would agree. Against them we have, I suppose, the authority of the followers of Epicurus and the modern Open Process theologians.

I didn’t think discussion of randomness would be this complicated :cold_sweat:

2 Likes

“For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple and wrong.”
― H.L. Mencken

Sometimes it makes me wonder whether such discussions on randomness just appear to be random or whether they are truly random… :space_invader:

2 Likes

Argon. So what’s the frequency Kenneth? Sorry. I don’t get your point?

Hi Scott.
This exchange is often noted in discussions about God’s plans with regard to evolution:

There is a story, possibly apocryphal, of the distinguished British biologist, J.B.S. Haldane, who found himself in the company of a group of theologians. On being asked what one could conclude as to the nature of the Creator from a study of his creation, Haldane is said to have answered, “An inordinate fondness for beetles.”

1 Like

However random or non-random they may be, they certainly do evolve
Then the question is, is intelligent design at work? :smiley:

1 Like

Haha. It is a good quote. I suppose if you only look at the form of life it seems to assume many adaptations that seem odd and maybe random. Why does God bother with all those Beatles.
But Better to not look at it that way. Do not caught up in the emperors clothes! Its the DNA and only the DNA that should be considered. DNA is the sustained entity of life over time and not the forms that life assumes. You can’t consider all the bells and whistles that life evolves to adapt to its environment. All adaptations of form function to serve the sustainment of the DNA. The purpose of every life form is to sustain its ordered state (DNA) of existence over time. This state is not the form and not the individual entity but it is the DNA. To do this God has developed a system for DNA to adapt to its environment. Essentially the DNA is learning to sustain and enhance its existence. That is pretty amazing! Since there is a purpose then the system of life and what we call evolution are not random nor directionless. So all those Beatles do serve a purpose to God after all.

1 Like

Scott

You’ve done an interesting logical exercise here. Francis Bacon founded modern science on the basis that you could not (and must not try to) theorise on God’s teleological purposes from the data of nature.

Richard Dawkins advanced his “selfish gene” interpretation of the data of nature partly, at least, to deny the appearance of teleology in living beings.

Now we seem to have a situation where Dawkins ateleological interpretation becomes the basis for understanding God’s purposes in creation, in the form of his overwhelming desire to preserve insentient DNA through disposable sentient lifeforms.

Still, each has his reward, no doubt

@Skoshland,

Scott, I think you have it.

God created DNA to adapt to the environment (Variation), and God created the environment to change so that the ecology of the earth becomes more diverse and interdependent (Natural Selection.) God words on both ends to give God’s Creation direction and purpose. This is clearly found in John 1:1-3.

This is not the old teleology. This is the new teleology based literally on God’s Logos, Jesus Christ.

I get the sense that under that scheme, the ‘purpose’ of life is continuous survival through differing conditions and we are all just temporary vessels for the ‘tuning’ and propagation of DNA. This sounds very much like Richard Dawkin’s selfish gene thesis.

If Teilhard de Chardin were still alive, I am sure he would heartily agree with your statement above. He envisioned the first 3 billion years of evolution in the Biosphere as proceeding through the increased amount of information carried by DNA, thereby insuring its survival. Once this biological evolution had produced a Mind that could harbor and transmit abstract thoughts, a new method of information storage and transmission was created, adding a new sphere to the Universe–the Noosphere. I realize that some scientists will consider this some sort of New Age mumbo-jumbo, but in reality this paradigm should help guide our future efforts, because evolution in the Noosphere (advances in human culture, if you prefer) are already becoming more important than evolution in the Biosphere.

As the Wizards of the Noosphere, nuclear physicists have tapped an energy source that could threaten the future of its ‘inventors’, while biological scientist’s ability to ‘design’ new humans is within easy reach (thru CRISPR-C9). Unlimited freedom in the Noosphere may be a mixed blessing. If our Creator does NOT consider us humans as something special, it is possible that the Noosphere on this earth will exist only as a momentary flicker in Cosmic Time. It is my Faith that we are, indeed, _imago Dei__, that keeps me optimistic.
Al Leoe

James, thanks for these observations. I saw this not more than 30 minutes before lecturing on natural selection in my class. I threw your comment in a slide and ended up discussing it with the students for 30 minutes. It was a great conversation starter.