Is evolution a fraud?

[MarkD (A Whateverist, not a Christian)]

@T_aquaticus

a word from Dr. Gould:

In the American vernacular, “theory” often means “imperfect fact”—part of a hierarchy of confidence running downhill from fact to theory to hypothesis to guess. Thus creationists can (and do) argue: evolution is “only” a theory, and intense debate now rages about many aspects of the theory. If evolution is less than a fact, and scientists can’t even make up their minds about the theory, then what confidence can we have in it? Indeed, President Reagan echoed this argument before an evangelical group in Dallas when he said (in what I devoutly hope was campaign rhetoric): “Well, it is a theory. It is a scientific theory only, and it has in recent years been challenged in the world of science—that is, not believed in the scientific community to be as infallible as it once was.”

Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world’s data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts do not go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein’s theory of gravitation replaced Newton’s, but apples did not suspend themselves in mid-air, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from apelike ancestors whether they did so by Darwin’s proposed mechanism or by some other, yet to be discovered.

Moreover, “fact” does not mean “absolute certainty.” The final proofs of logic and mathematics flow deductively from stated premises and achieve certainty only because they are not about the empirical world. Evolutionists make no claim for perpetual truth, though creationists often do (and then attack us for a style of argument that they themselves favor). In science, “fact” can only mean “confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent.” I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.
–Stephen Jay Gould, “Evolution as Fact and Theory”

QED (or as close as we can get to it this side of geometry and logic) YEC’s.

[RichardG (Richard Gillett)]

I do not intend to get further involved in this but FYI This is the type of assertions where i would argue in favour of evolution and against biblical superiority

Richard

[T_aquaticus]

@RichardG

I do not intend to get further involved in this but FYI This is the type of assertions where i would argue in favour of evolution and against biblical superiority

“It vexes me when they would constrain science by the authority of the Scriptures, and yet do not consider themselves bound to answer reason and experiment.”–Galileo Galilei

[rsewell (RON SEWELL)]

@Olin

It is systematic, pervasive and a consistent drum beat in academia, media and museums. It is all purported as fact.

Yes Olin, it goes deep. Spherical earth, moon landing, gravity, lol. Riiiightttt!!!

The point is, when you make such a sweeping accusation of conspiracy involving millions of people who are familiar with science, where does one even begin? The worlds of medicine, technology, and basically modern society are built of the precepts of science. Science does include biology. Nature is always changing; witness the variants of SARS-CoV-2 which have emerged over a short time. That is what evolution is, biology over time. Maybe we should start with, is there anything in biology where you accept that scientists are correct?

[Relates (Roger A. Sawtelle)]

@Olin

Just so you know he is not a church father. He was not a disciple of Jesus. He didn’t even believe in the Trinity. He was a very smart man but way out there if you know what I mean.

Just so you know, Origen is a Church Father and he was a disciple of Jesus. He did not believe in the Trinity because he lived before the Trinity became the doctrine of the Church. He was a very devout man and great scholar of the Bible.

Jesus told us: :Do not judge others!, esp those whom you do not know, like Origen and scientists.

[glipsnort (Steve Schaffner)]

Where are people getting the idea that Origen didn’t believe in the Trinity?
‘This is most clearly pointed out by the Apostle Paul, when demonstrating that the power of the Trinity is one and the same, in the words, “There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit; there are diversities of administrations, but the same Lord; and there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God who worketh all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit: withal.” From which it most clearly follows that there is no difference in the Trinity, but that which is called the gift of the Spirit is made known through the Son, and operated by God the Father.’

[glipsnort (Steve Schaffner)]

@Olin

I should clarify. Most of the scientist that are pushing evolution as scientific fact are the ones I’m referring to. I’m not saying they are bad people but are caught up in this lie. I like science and scientist but evolution is only wishful thinking. Evolution is not even a scientific hypothesis, since there is no conceivable way in which it can be tested.

You’ve been misinformed. Scientists don’t accept evolution to disprove God or to spite creationists. Scientists who believe in God do science as a way of exploring God’s creation, and we pretty much never think about creationists while doing science since their claims are utterly divorced from reality.

We accept and use evolution because it works. It explains and predicts vast ranges of data in multiple fields, and it provides a basis for ongoing, fruitful research. If someone comes up with a theory that works better, we’ll accept that.

[Olin (Olin Furr)]

Let me clarify. When I said he was not a disciple of Jesus , I meant he was not one of the twelve. They are the church fathers, and of course along with the women, Mary and Mary Magdala,Lydia, Priscilla and many more of the first century. Origen had access to Old Testament writings and should have had the Muratorian Canon. From these writings it is clear Jesus is God in the flesh. John 10:30, John 1:8, Titus 2:13, John 8:58 and many more. The trinity is spoken of in Mat 28:19, John 15:26, Gen 1:26, Mat 3:16-17, John 1:1-51 and many more. Although the Trinity is not in the Bible, the precept is there. The Triune God has been with us from the beginning.
I’m not Judging him. It is my opinion. I know he was a serious person because he wanted to be martyred. He could of used a little help from the Apostle Paul. I am not big on organized religion. I am pleased to be a part of Jesus’s church but I know the church has done questionable and immoral things because of the man or men leading it. That is why I don’t put any man on a pedestal. The word Theologian makes me look at their words and teachings very carefully. There was a lot of misinformation and pagan influences at that time and yes it is the same today and getting worse. The Bible is the Word of God and I believe it from cover to cover.

[Bill_II]

@Olin

They are the church fathers, and of course along with the women, Mary and Mary Magdala,Lydia, Priscilla and many more of the first century.

Unique definition of church father. I always called them apostles and the followers of Jesus.

And Origen certainly believed in the concept of the Trinity. I have a collection of all his works and a search for Trinity returns a boat load of results. I can provide a few if you wish.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@Olin

God doesn’t need millions of years to do anything.

Why did he take a whole 144 hours?

YECism belittles the import of Psalm 8:4, not only because of the vastness of the size of the universe, but also because of the vastness of its antiquity:

What is man, that you are mindful of him?[!]

 
And Augustine, mentioned also above, nailed it almost two millennia ago:

In regards to things about the earth, the sky, other elements of this world, the motion and rotation or even the magnitude and distances of the stars, the definite eclipses of the sun and moon, the passage of years and seasons, the nature of animals, of fruits, of stones, and of other such things, it should not be surprising that such things can be known with the greatest certainty by reasoning or by experience, even by one who is not a Christian.

Therefore, it is an utterly disgraceful and ruinous thing—and something that should be greatly avoided—if [a non-Christian] hears a Christian speaking like an idiot on these matters and trying to make them accord with Christian writings. When that happens, [the non-Christian] will say that he can’t keep from laughing when he sees how totally in error they are. In view of this and in keeping it in mind constantly while dealing with the book of Genesis, I have, insofar as I was able, explained in detail and set forth for consideration the meanings of obscure passages, taking care not to affirm rashly some singular meaning to the prejudice of another and perhaps better explanation.

[mitchellmckain (Scientist and Christian)]

Because it was hard for me to see how the reference to Psalm 8:4 is relevant, I think a full quote of the Psalm is helpful.

1 O Lord, our Lord,
how majestic is thy name in all the earth!
Thou whose glory above the heavens is chanted
2 by the mouth of babes and infants,
thou hast founded a bulwark because of thy foes,
to still the enemy and the avenger.
3 When I look at thy heavens, the work of thy fingers,
the moon and the stars which thou hast established;
4 what is man that thou art mindful of him,
and the son of man that thou dost care for him?
5 Yet thou hast made him little less than God,
and dost crown him with glory and honor.
6 Thou hast given him dominion over the works of thy hands;
thou hast put all things under his feet,
7 all sheep and oxen,
and also the beasts of the field,
8 the birds of the air, and the fish of the sea,
whatever passes along the paths of the sea.
9 O Lord, our Lord,
how majestic is thy name in all the earth!

[beaglelady]

@Olin

Examples: Piltdown Man(Eanthropus) a complete fraud and was taught as fact for 40 years.

Sounds like you’re working from a Jack Chick pamphlet. Do you even bother to visit natural history museums?

[Bill_II]

@beaglelady

Sounds like you’re working from a Jack Chick pamphlet.

It did take 41 years for it to finally be exposed as a hoax. However,

Lewin, Roger, Bones of Contention
In the decades prior to its exposure as a forgery in 1953, scientists increasingly regarded Piltdown as an enigmatic aberration, inconsistent with the path of hominid evolution as demonstrated by fossils found elsewhere.

So I wouldn’t say it had been taught as fact for those 41 years.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@Dale

YECism belittles the import of Psalm 8:4, not only because of the vastness of the size of the universe, but also because of the vastness of its antiquity:

What is man, that you are mindful of him?[!]

@mitchellmckain

Because it was hard for me to see how the reference to Psalm 8:4 is relevant

The simple and straightforward point is that we are tiny with respect to the universe, both in comparing our minute physical size to the vast enormity of the universe and in comparing the few minutes of our time here to the eons of the existence of the universe, and that YEC ‘science’ is antithetical to the essence of what the psalmist was saying in that verse with his rhetorical question.
 

@mitchellmckain

I think a full quote of the Psalm is helpful.

I am certainly not going to object to posting the whole psalm, especially since there are likely some seeing it for the first time.

[Combine_Advisor (Charles, confirmed as Thomas)]

I would also like to point out that Ecclesiasticus recognizes that man is an animal. While this doesn’t mean that the ancients knew about evolution, it does mean that they did understand we share a kinship with beasts.

[Klax (The only thing that matters is faith expressed in love.)]

They did. At the time of the Exile. When Genesis was written.

[Klax (The only thing that matters is faith expressed in love.)]

@Bill_II

I am always amused when a YEC finds out that a literal reading of Genesis wasn’t always assumed, long before evolution/old earth came on the scene.

They came on the scene at the same time.

[Klax (The only thing that matters is faith expressed in love.)]

@an-old-scribe

Science does not investigate the meaning of things. The Bible is spiritual or religious literature and as such is concerned about meaning. Specifically, in the case of the creation narrative in Genesis, the purpose is about what is the meaning in God creating rather than a description of how the cosmos came to be. Simply stated as “Why did God Create?” The narratives in Genesis are not about how God created but why God created.

Science, after philosophy, does investigate the meaning of meaning and claims of meaning. There is only absolute meaning if God is revealed in Christ.

[Olin (Olin Furr)]

Actually the context is not addressing the higher nature of man . It is simply calling attention to the fact that so far as earthly existence is concerned , men and animals have a common destiny- death! Man has no advantage over the beast in this regard.
Genesis 1:26-28 We are made in the image of God to rule over all creatures of earth. Notice the plurality. Let us make man. God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Psalm 8:4 reiterates the Greatness of God the Creator of everything. Mankind should not get too cocky because although we are made in the image of God we are by no means powerful like God.
Romans 1:20 says we have no excuse not to believe in the Creator “ his invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.”
The Bible does have some allegorical areas but for the most part it is literal and anyone studying it should look deeper at the original language of the text. Hebrew and Greek are very descriptive. An example is the word Day (yom).
It is used over 2300 times in the Old Testament, so it is easy to verify its context in writings. In Genesis 1 it is a 24 hr period. If you don’t agree it is ok. The most important issue is Salvation in Jesus Christ. There is but one way. John 14:6 Jesus said unto him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

[Del_Ray]

@Olin

YEC

The problem with big bang is that life would have to be created from non-life.