Is apologetics (often) a waste of time?

No – the scriptures do not talk science because that’s not their purpose and they’re generally the wrong type of literature. To try to get science from them is disrespectful to the writer, to the Holy Spirit Who chose that writer, and the the audience to whom it was written. YECists claim to honor the scriptures, but they do not even have the common decency to acknowledge that they’re reading someone else’s mail and so go to the effort of working tom understand those whose mail they are privileged to read.

In a piece of literature not meant to be taken literally in either of its genres.

The fascinating thing here is that to maintain that it must be read literally is to assert that the Egyptians and most of Mesopotamia got a large amount of their theology right – and they didn’t have Yahweh’s help!

Only if you think you can understand the inspired scriptures without bothering to actually do the required homework.
If you got a letter from someone who had been in WWII in Burma, and it had to be translated, would you assume that because you could read the translation that you understood clearly what the letter was talking about? No – you’d need to investigate cultural references and other background material or you’d zoom right over much of the meaning. It’s no different reading the scriptures, except they’re from much farther back than merely WWII, from a far more different culture, and for the most part they aren’t letters and so it is necessary to understand what kind of literature they are.

No, it isn’t – that’s just intellectual laziness and arrogance. It comes from a desire to know things without having to do the necessary homework.

That cannot be supported from the text – it’s a statement from the “Well it looks like this to me, and of course I must be right” school of thought . . . or rather lack of bothering with school or engging in actual thought.

Of course he was – in their language, using their types of literature, within their worldview.
The amazing thing is that it is just common sense when you’re making a message for someone that you use means of communication that they will understand – but when it comes to YEC and the scriptures they refuse to admit that God was speaking to people millennia ago; they want to believe that the Holy Spirit had no respect for those people and instead coerced Moss into writing in a literary type that would have been totally alien to both him and his audience and thus useless in that time and place.
Instead Moses chose to take the Egyptian creation story and modify it to send a message the way people did back then – taking someone else’s theology and making it talk about your own God. He did this brilliantly, turning it from an Egyptian cosmological myth into two types of literature at the same time, one that portrayed YHWH-Elohim as a mighty king conquering a realm, the other showing how He built His own temple – the world – and decorated it, finally adding in the most important item in a temple back then, the image of the god, which in this case was a set of living images.
The first choice of literature was simple: people back then and there expected there to be a battle in a creation story because creation was a matter of the gods defeating the forces of chaos and darkness, generally after some serious combat – but Moses essentially says, "Nope – YHWH-Elohim doesn’t need combat, He just commands and the forces of darkness and chaos retreat. The second genre, though, really trumps the first one: YHWH-Elohim building His own temple and putting His own image into it wasn’t the way gods were supposed to do things, they were supposed to make slaves and have them do the work, but YHWH-Elohim does His own, and tops it off not by putting in a statue to represent Him but living images with minds of their own! It drops the final trump because up to the sixth day it was only clear that this was ‘royal chronicle’, so when Moses declared “as the image of God He mad them” those listening would have been baffled – what did that have to do with His victory? The the second shoe dropped: when it came to the phrase “God rested” the audience would have had to pick their jaws off the ground because he just switched from conquest talk to temple talk, because the last thing to happen when a temple was built and dedicated back then was that the god showed up and rested in it – after the god’s slaves had strained themselves to get everything just right! So when Moses says that God “rested from His work that He had done” he was turning things all upside down again because gods weren’t supposed to work, and a god resting in his temple was to enjoy what his slaves had made. Then perhaps the implications of earlier details sank in: YHWH-Elohim doesn’t make slaves, He makes living images, and He sits down in His temple with them.
That carried a potent message to the Egyptians who got hold of the story because it told them they were nothing but their gods’ slaves, but Yahweh’s people were essentially family! And in Egypt who was family to the gods? One, and one only – the Pharaoh. Moses had just written an account that set all of the Israelites on the same level as the Pharaoh.
We miss all this when we pretend we don’t need to do the homework, when we demand that the Holy Spirit instead had Moses write a dry, almost boring cataloguing of events little different from putting up a barn.

No, there’s always the option of throwing out pride and arrogance and admitting that the Holy Spirit didn’t inspire a work that would have been meaningless to people back then, instead He inspired one that communicated in terms they understood (and may have even gotten a laugh or three from).

But YEC doesn’t do that – what Answers in Genesis and their ilk do is choose to lie, misrepresent, lie, ignore the scientific method, lie, and use every slick and devious trick Madison Avenue ever thought up in a despicable fashion that makes Christians and GOd look just plain stupid.

Which some may look askance at, but is definitely not stupid.
It’s so easy to think that Easter was the victory, though it wasn’t at all, it was the beginning of the victory parade, the Triumph that Rome’s successful generals got. Paul doesn’t say, “We preach Christ, resurrected”, he said, “We preach Christ crucified”. The early church understood this and called the Crucifixion Christ’s coronation.

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Yes – you own yourself, in human terms. The trouble is that many others decide not to honor your self-ownership, and indeed to punish you for even thinking you own yourself.

Jefferson didn’t write, “We hold these truths worth establishing if we can gain the power”, he wrote “We hold these truths to be self-evident”. Even as a Deist he understood what God had given to each and every individual, and he based his argument on that.
And it is even more true now: we are not our own, we were bought with a price, but the payment of that price means that we truly own ourselves because now we can truly be ourselves. It’s why the early church recognized fairly quickly that to own slaves was next to blasphemy because it was a claim a higher authority than the Blood of Christ.

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I knew a psychiatrist who was an atheist who would have disagreed with Hitchens; he held that the beginning of mental health was to admit that one is a total mess, which is very much saying the same thing Hitchens condemns.

I notice that Hitchens misrepresented what Wilson said about borrowing from Christianity in order to attack Christianity. Then he confuses competition with coveting, which can only be true if life is a zero-sum game.

Hitchens baffles me in that he refuses to even allow that God inspires people the way a human friend can, that knowing Who the Designer and Creator is Who made everything won’t make someone say, “I want to know how!”

In Hitchens’ hypothetical it depends on where you live: in many Muslim countries abusing a woman would be approved on the assumption that she deserved it.

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Those are good observations. I always liked Hitchens disbelief that God would choose a dirt kicking goat herder in the middle of nowhere. But that is how he often works. I wish somebody could have told Hitchens, it is not unlike his choosing a lowly hominid creature to make himself a house in the world.

This is pretty awesome too. I was on a Hitchens stream yesterday. It’s his last public appearance and the video gives me goosebumps every time I play it

Doesn’t mean that they are.
Doesn’t mean that Jefferson, a slave holder, believed them himself.
As a slave-holder his life demonstrated that he believed the words insofar as they affected him and people just like him. He expected the recipient of the missive to think the same way. It was an effective and eloquent way to start framing his argument.

Jefferson’s words, thank God, are not legal code. “All men” has, until recently been read as all “mankind.” And often it has meant that. Except when it didn’t. Judging by laws in the new nation, “men” didn’t only mean “men” in the document, white men.

I will not be visiting a large part of the world, where I would voluntarily be entering a game in which I can’t break even, which I can’t win, and which I might not be able to leave. My right of self-ownership does not exist there.
In other cultures yours would not either, as it belongs to the group to which you belong.

Insofar as a price has been paid for us, we are not free to ourselves but free from the bondage of sin. We are no longer slaves to sin, but slaves to righteousness and to God.

My only interest in this discussion is to show that even ideals such as human autonomy or self-ownership are not as hard and fast as we would like them to be.

Thank you for your reply but I think you and others missed the point. Look into my book. It has facts galore based on reliable research sources for the data. For all who replied to my post, it is amazing how anytime you bring God into the debate some people get upset. Everyone considerd my statement
If you want to make America Great Again You Have to Make America Godly Again was not meant as a political statement but one directing us not to look at policies for helping us but look inward as to we on the individual level can do to Make America Godly Again. Make no mistake this is not Christian Nationalism but acceptance by Christians others of individual reponsibility.

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First the post was not meant to be political but a truth. The only was America wiull be great again is that its people will return to godliness. It satart with you and me. It is honoring God. Americ’s greatness would by a by product.

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Politics is not the topic of this thread. You seem determined to move the conversation to a different topic.

This forum is not an arena for marketing your book, either. If you have something relevant to the discussion you want to quote from any book, do so and cite it like the rest of us do.

America’s greatness began with massive land theft, genocide, kidnapping, forced labor, and extraction of resources, later made holy by the mythology of a christianized manifest destiny.

Christianity that is tied to American greatness is window dressing, exploited by those who offer the church power in exchange for votes and cash.

I don’t believe there is a space in this public forum for a real discussion of these matters or a stripping away of the mythologies americans like to tell ourselves. Please leave me out of it. Do not attempt to pull me into a private discussion of the topic.

I will continue to flag any additional MAGA-references for moderation.

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I thought that was the sum total of the political statement. Thanks for reposting as I thought I might have possibly missed something.

I am big believer this country is better off for the religious awakenings it has experienced: The Great Awakening, Cane Ridge and Azusa Street to name a few… these experiences of God for a people group or on an individual level can form a part of a comprehensive apologetic for the Christian faith.

Richard Lovelace’s Dynamics of Spiritual Life, a very important book for Tim Keller, has fascinated me recently. I am looking forward to reading its survey of spiritual awakenings since the Reformation.

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That is a bit gaslighting. This is not about emotion, but breaching the objective of this forum, which is the intersection of faith and science, not faith and making America Great Again. Please do not take this too personally, as others sometimes push the boundaries as well, and it would not take much to turn this forum into a political rage fest.

You have made some interesting observations on science in past comments, and it would be great to see more such input.

My recipes are true as well, but this is not the place for them.

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  • Worthy of remembering and quoting from time to time, in and outside of this forum.
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Thanks. I agree with you. There events in addition to being important to believers and others it is they who make ups America. The tide raises all boats.

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Sorry. I do not see it the way you see it.

If I was seen as gaslighting I do apolgize to the forum. Not my intentions. I will accept your admonishment.

Jefferson hated being a slave owner, but he had little choice: The great majority of his slaves didn’t actually belong to him, they belonged to the land in a very legal way that meant that if Jefferson had decided to free any of them it wouldn’t have worked – he would just have lost both land and slaves and nothing would have changed. Others actually belonged to his wife, who was restricted from freeing any by the terms of the marriage agreement. The number of slaves he could have actually freed was small, and with those there was another problem: Jefferson refused to just declare a slave to be free because without some means of providing for themselves they could have been re-enslaved, so he wanted to provide for their starting out with money, clothes, etc. so they would have something to start out with. The problem there is that Jefferson was actually a really terrible manager of his lands (I read once that the estate ran better including actually being profitable when he was out of the state, which left his wife Martha in charge) and so never managed to get prosperous enough to free even one family (unlike many slave owners, Jefferson tried to keep families together).
He was thus a realist who wanted slavery abolished but knew that no effort in that direction could possibly succeed, and he recognized that actually putting an end to the institution would end in war.

No – rights cannot be nullified. Your self-ownership is a fact of existence, the issue is that often it is not recognized. Jefferson knew when he wrote those famous words that while those inalienable rights applied to all regardless of skin color, there was no way in his lifetime to make others recognize that. That the legal system may deny some the free exercise of their rights does not nullify those rights.

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I didn’t see the original post at issue here, but given that sociology is considered a science I don’t see how an observation that society will do better if people “return to godliness”. And in that concept I don’t see anything that agrees with anything “MAGA” but in fact is contrary to it and to any other political agenda either because politics cannot possibly encourage godliness, the best it can do is get out of the way. I don’t see that as being much different than Wilson asserting against Hitchens that Christianity is good for the world.

And the “Jesus People” phenomenon (which gave birth to contemporary Christian music). The thing is, sociologically speaking I don’t see how any mass movement (Christian or otherwise) can be non-political (as I think Kendel argued in an earlier thread) because such a movement changes minds, indeed when movement is Christian is foundational – μετάνοια (metanoia) from its roots means a change of mind, not in the sense of a small adjustment but more like swapping out an old mind; in Greek usage it came to indicate a change of heart, or as Josephus used it, a change of will. It is distinct from feeling sorry, which is how too many Christians these days define repentance, though when the Greeks back in the day used μετάνοια to indicate a “change of heart” they weren’t talking about feelings – thus it was used by Christians to mean “conversion”, a profound change similar to taking a small factory and converting it to being a house. And while today saying “Jesus is Lord” is not itself a political statement it is nevertheless one with political implications because it changes the moral “menu” one operates from.
And while all that has implications for MAGA, it equally has implications for pretty much any political movement, if for no other reason than that Jesus said not to seek that kind of power.
And my mind just jumped to a question: how does brain activity differ between someone singing praises v cheering at a political rally?

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In actuality the science – however dismal – of economics says that the above is only true when the parameters are right. To risk over-generalizing, the tide best raises all boats when those working on the tide are acting in Christian fashion. It’s hard to find any politician these days who actually does that, or for that matter any of the super-wealthy who run the big corporations. Economics is thoroughly mingled with sociology, and behaving in Christ-like fashion has definite sociological impact.

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  • You seem to be a clever fellow, so let me ask a question that popped up in my mind recently: "How many ways are there to talk politics without specifically saying the words “politics” or “political” or saying that you’re talking about politics?
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I see the goal of apologetics as being to inform rather to convince. Apologetics to me means explaining how Christianity makes sense of the world. In that sense, even thinking about the Christian perspective on bio-ethics can be thought of as a apologetics as far as it is explaining how Christianity is relevant to modern issues like genetic engineering. I would also agree that apologetics is not the only important tool for evangelism. It is just one of several. Being a good neighbor and standing up for justice are just as important. We need to do more than explain why Christianity makes sense, we also need to show that it makes sense by living it out.

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No everyone in America makes up America, not just those who like what you like and believe as you believe.

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