That is because the marine environment is great for creating fossils. The problem with the quintillions is if all of those animals were alive at the same time, as required by a global flood, there is no room left for other marine animals.
Which creates another set of problems. So how did the living things that didn’t make it onto the ark manage to survive for a year under water? If the flood covered the mountains to create the fossils as you claim, where did the olive tree come from? It should have been covered by the flood.
No it just means there is a problem with your interpretation.
Your answer didn’t address the fact that the number of fossils represent a volume of critters that simply would not fit into even a global flood the height of Mount Everest.
Nor did it address the fact that they are sorted in ways that a single flood simply could not replicate. For example, we never find whale fossils and plesiosaur fossils in the same strata, despite the fact that they were similar sizes and lived in similar marine environments.
Incidentally, here’s something that I noticed a while ago that I don’t think I’ve ever seen mentioned by anyone on any side of the creation and evolution debate. There is nothing whatsoever in the Bible that tells us that marine life was affected by the Flood. The only creatures that Genesis 6-9 talks about being killed off are land animals and birds.
I’m sorry, but even if the Flood was somehow global and somehow covered Mount Everest, the idea that it broke up the continents is simply patent nonsense. Complete science fiction.
You’re talking about whole continents moving four thousand miles in a single year. That’s millions of square miles of the Earth’s crust moving at half a mile an hour. It’s the equivalent of the 2004 Boxing Day tsunami and earthquake happening once every minute for a whole year. Anything of that nature would have released enough heat to vaporise not only the Earth’s oceans but also large parts of the crust. Even before it got to that point the Earth would have been swept by winds hundreds of miles an hour that would have pulverised the Ark to smithereens. The Flood that you read about in Genesis 6-9 is positively serene by comparison with that scenario.
I’m telling you, young-earthism and Flood geology are not the Bible. They are a thick layer of total science fiction plastered on top of the Bible.
Not only was there a Flood, but the earth and moon collided, and both changed position in the planetary lineup of the solar system. We use water as a coolant for heated engines. The Flood was the coolant for what physically took place. Mount Everest probably formed about 400 years after the Flood. There are several places in the Bible that talk about changing the height of mountains and filling in the valleys. So creating valleys and raising the height of mountains does not have to be a drawn out process. Revelations says that forming a new heaven and earth is God’s specialty.
Are there a range of aged mountains to do a comparison? Or are all mountains relatively the same age? Are the Appelachians the oldest and just have more material that was lost and therefore cannot be properly dated? What caused them to erode faster than the Rockies? According to dating, I thought the claim was that the Hymalayas are the latest to be raised, thus the youngest. If mt Everest was the last to rise it was not the tallest at the time of the Flood so saying the water was at Everest’s current height would seem dishonest. Not that taller mountains existed, but compare the Flood to an assumed height of the Appalachians if they happen to be the oldest.
Water would transfer heat from the crust where it was being generated to the cooler atmosphere. My point was not to declare it happened, in as much as; water would be used, not other types of gasses.
Why do you need chapter and verse how the moon formed? The exact time and way it formed is not even an established certainty in cosmology. It is placed at the best mathematical concept. A cosmology by the way that cannot even explain where all the water came from to begin with. Either the earth started out with water, or the water came later. Which is it? If the answer includes coming from a source further out than our current position, should I ask for chapter and verse?
There are all sorts of indicators you can look at, not just radiometric dating. For starters, if mountains were formed quickly, this would generate enormous stresses and release enormous amounts of heat. This would produce all sorts of minerals that simply don’t form under slow, gradual processes. Here are a couple of examples:
There are also a lot of types of rock (sedimentary rock in particular) that cannot form quickly. Anything formed from microscopic particles (e.g. shale) needs long periods of time in very still or slow-moving water in order for the particles to settle out. This is simply a consequence of Stokes’s Law.
Not to get too picky, but in an engine water is used to transport heat from the interior to the radiator. If the crust is heated it doesn’t need water to transport the heat it would simply be carried away by convection or radiation. Unless you are proposing some kind of unknown circulation system.
You said:
which implies both were recorded in the Bible. If that was not your intention I misunderstood.
Not so. Here is a recent paper which explains where the water came from.
A model built around guesses. One that ignores necessary questions to be answered before one goes off wandering down some path with an unknown end.
Questions such as where did the material come from that led to the BB. Or another like what caused stable elements that are from an unknown creation, that are now caused to bang when they came from this nothing source, at one time, so they were in as state of equilibrium, and the last question, what set them unstable.
When someone examines an accident, there is usually an intelligence of some sort, (mouse to human, or squirrel, or deer, cow, or moose), that set the events into motion to make the accident.
So what intelligence, or Intelligence caused the “accident” of the BB? And since we know that the Bible’s BB was not an accident, then we should be willing and able to recognize that God created what ever He needed to create, (from nothing, I might add), to then “speak” into existence the heavens and the earth.
Were there specific processes, that worked, in the speed necessary for it all to happen within the time frame that God, Himself set, undoubtedly. But for us to try to determine what those processes were, would probably be along the same level of impossibility as to answer the question, Where did God come from?
We are far from having the ability today to understand the question as to what were the processes involved in the BB. Taking a stab at it would be like taking a piece of chalk and drawing a line with the hope of one day coming to the point from where you started.
At least it would be an answer best ascertained when we are immortally redesigned with our far superior intellects.
But don’t things die, decay, and are eaten by scavengers in a marine environment as well as a land environment? The fact that none of these things happen during a rapid burial makes rapid burial the greatest for creating fossils. Does it not? Let’s not also forget that most of the fossils were swept into the position they are in during the burial. Weren’t all the fossils found remains of animals that lived at the same time? How may we say they left no space for other animals?
I’m not an expert in the field. But as for the olive branch bought by the dove is concerned, didn’t Noah send a dove out earlier that returned with nothing? With my limited knowledge, I can only assume that seeds from the plants that died were preserved. Accordingly, the olive branch and other plants thus began to reappear at the time of the return of the second dove. Let’s not also forget God’s ability to carry out supernatural moves.
Should we allow questions of minor details such as this to derail our trust in the written word of God that informs us of the history of fallen mankind in the sight of God and of judgment of the wicked? Aren’t there plenty of places where answers may be found beyond what I gave here? Oops! I forgot! YEC scientists "ain’t good enough to answer!" Huh? OoooOOOooo! Is the quoted statement scientific?
If written that documentation of all the things Jesus did during His lifetime would require more books than the world could hold (St. John 21:25), how much more would that be true with documentation of every detail of Old Testament events? How many millions of years would it take for us to argue over the large number of undocumented things that would be contained? Would that help? Isn’t there a danger that excessive argumentation may lead astray?
Maybe it would be better if we little ones go to the hotline to ask Dad on the other side for the answers we need. That of course would be about things other than the tiny details we are arguing over. If you had kids wouldn’t you much rather have them come to you for explanation of your instructions instead of fussing among themselves over them? But I hope we aren’t afraid of Dad’s answers. (Oops! Is that the reason that some tend to dislike the group of scientists mentioned above?) If so, wouldn’t that indicate a breach in relationship that needs to be addressed? Dad’s utmost priority is to inform, protect, and lead us in the path of His mighty wisdom and hates blockages to that path.
As written. “Let God be true, but every man a liar.” (Romans 3:4) So the best way for us imperfect beings to avoid error with scripture is to stay as close to scripture as possible and let scripture interpret scripture. Is it not? With the Bible clearly saying there was a worldwide flood, Who should one hire to whisper in your ear otherwise? Please beware of human swindlerature! Uh I mean human nature that promotes doubt to God’s precious word and thus widens breaches.
The fact that all the ocean creatures were not killed does not mean that ocean creatures were not affected. All I can say Is that “all the fountains of the great deep broken up (Genesis 7:11)” and we have scientists today that observed and informed us of consequences of it. As for Mt Everest, we also have explanations of how the sea creatures on it reach its height.
If you received all the answers needed to prove to your satisfaction that the global flood really took place along with other Biblical scripture beyond doubt, would that be sufficient to put all of your trust in God?
I say again, please beware of human swindlerature! I mean human nature (Jeremiah 17:9-10)!
When the prodigal son returned to his father having spent all his worth, confessing himself not worthy even to be called a son, what happened?
What creates fossils usually is the hard parts, bone and shell, which most scavengers don’t eat. What matters the most is the animal has to die in a watery environment, the sea, lakes, or streams, so it can be buried by sediment.
Given there are quintillions of belemnites found in one layer and the only thing preserved is the hard end of this squid like animal, for all quintillion of them to be alive at the same time would result in a density of belemnites that would leave no room for any other marine animal in their environment. The only way to get to quintillions is for a slow accumulation of the dead over a long period of time.
You are very close to the answer. Natural history, the age of the earth for example, comes from natural revelation which is provided by God and is therefore true. Redemption history, why we need Jesus, comes from special revelation which is also provided by God. They are NOT the same history nor need they be. The Bible was written by men and God accommodated their limited knowledge so you can’t expect to find, or was it ever intended to include, an accurate version of natural history in the Bible.
Well yes, but my observation about the ocean creatures not being mentioned in the Genesis flood account was just an aside.
The more important point though was that there are simply too many fossils to physically fit into a single flood, not even one that covered the whole Earth to the depth of Mount Everest. Similarly, there is simply too much evidence of radioactive decay. As I said, even the young-earth RATE project team themselves admitted that squeezing it all into the LSDYEC timescale would have released enough heat to raise the Earth’s temperature to 22,000°C. That is simply a deal-breaker for a young earth.
My trust in God is not based on the Flood being global, and my trust in the Bible as the Word of God is not diminished by the fact that it wasn’t. My trust in God is based on the completed work of Christ on the Cross.
I prefer honey over jam on my pancakes. Wouldn’t it be good if somehow possible for all of us here to gather at a breakfast table?
I will cover your last statement first:
Thank you! You are correct that we shouldn’t allow the issues we discuss to cause loss of faith in the power of the cross to save us. But doesn’t that necessitate care in handling of revealed Biblical knowledge associated with our salvation, especially when it comes to sharing this treasure of knowledge with others?
As I see the various arguments between old-earther and YEC scientists over the flood and the age of the earth, and other issues that supposedly disprove each other, the question comes to my mind why is there a war in the first place? If we are talking about what science reveals, shouldn’t that unify?
In addition to the claim that the young-earth argument is disproved by the evidence of much radioactive decay, I was also told in an earlier forum of a tree whose rings indicate an age more than 6,000 years, another supposed nail in the YEC coffin.
Even if I should be convinced of any of the old-earth arguments against the Biblical claims of the age of the earth and of the truth that there was a global flood, I would be a fool to jettison the Biblical knowledge and understanding I have been blessed with that include these items. Each bit of Biblical knowledge work together in describing the history of the human race and the vital redemption plan. To leave out one piece is to collapse the structure.
I earlier spoke of Charles Templeton, a colleague of Billy Grahams. What item of worth did he receive in return for his giving up the huge treasure of gospel truth because of induced doubt based on “science?”
Let’s remember the following:
“For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord (Romans 8:38-39).”
That includes separation from bits of Biblical knowledge that may possibly lead to a tangent from the truth. Why is it that the word, “yom” means a literal day everywhere in the Bible except Genesis?
Let’s also not forget the following:
“That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God (1 Corinthians 2:5).”
“For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe (1 Corinthians 1:21).”
I later learned that more than one ring could occur in a tree because of drastic climate changes within the year.
Well absolutely Earl. Of course we should be careful in how we handle revealed Biblical knowledge associated with our salvation. But that’s why I keep saying that anyone who wants to talk about it needs to know what they’re talking about and make sure that their facts are straight.
The age of the earth isn’t the issue. Evolution isn’t the issue. Quite frankly I don’t care how old the earth is, or who or what did or didn’t evolve from what. I’m satisfied that the Bible can handle it either way. But I do care when I see well-meaning but badly informed Christians shooting themselves in the foot by trying to support their position on the matter with arguments that are untrue, nonsensical, mathematically incoherent, or even in some cases dishonest. Such things do not uphold the Bible; on the contrary, they undermine it.
Because if you are going to argue for it one way or another, you need to make sure that your arguments are based on honest reporting and coherent interpretation of accurate information. The fact remains that even if the earth is six thousand years old after all, and even if humans and animals are completely unrelated, there are still vast swathes of arguments being made in support of such a position that are quite frankly so bad that they look more like atheist parodies than genuine Christian apologetics. The RATE project’s 22,000°C of accelerated nuclear decay is just one example.
It’s a case of being wise as serpents and innocent as doves, that’s all.