Interpretation & Meaning in Genesis + Sabbath

(Earl L Dunn) #142

Hello Mitch and James,

Thanks @dlc for the helpful info you gave.

For you, Mitch.

Aren’t there good entitlements? Of course I enjoy entitlements as a Christian! I’m happy to be entitled to peace and joy unspeakable and a 24-7 hotline (prayer) that’s never busy on the other end! Most importantly, I enjoy the life of the redeemed and the grace without which it’s impossible for anyone to be saved. Don’t you? Don’t you enjoy being entitled to friendship with Him that’s closer than a brother whose presence only brings peace? He’s a friend one would much desire for others to know. I could go on and on. What’s wrong with these entitlements, please? Material entitlements are no comparison to God’s great grace!

Having called yourself a Christian, what drove you into condemning yourself for enjoying the above? Did you mean it? What were you drinking?

As for the rest of your post, you know better about us Christians than to make all of those accusations! Should all of man’s sins be blamed only on us? We are not enemies of science. What do you think of one that continually accuses the other guy?

One way to misinform is to leave out much necessary information about an issue. So were we misinformed for a long time about the crusades. Although I’m not happy with all done during the crusades, have you considered any possible reason they may have been necessary? Attacks against and enslavement of Christians were a constant threat and were rampant in Europe and someone was needed to defend. Hence the crusades.

For you, James,

Thanks again very much, @dlc for the helpful info!

James, you are correct that even the quantity of water shown in the ancient lakes was insufficient for carving the Grand Canyon. Zero volts deliver zero power for work. But the height of Bruce Canyon, part of the floor of the ancient Grand Lake was is at about 6kv - uh- I mean 6,000 feet! That amounts to much “voltage” to push that huge amount of current! Otherwise the Grand Canyon would have been impossible and the lakes probably would have been still there today. High volumes of high speed, unimpeded water is capable of gigantic damage! Is the word “gigantic” sufficient? Hundreds of square miles of land were removed from the Kalbab plateau in addition to that removed to form the Grand Canyon during that huge downhill flow!

Think of the Oroville Dam Spillway failure that occurred in California. We’re talking about water against concrete on the spillway! But a flow on the scale of the emptying of the lakes moved huge boulders.

The best scenario that supports the latest theory of the formation of the Grand Canyon occurred at Mt. St. Helens. Not only a miniature version of the Grand Canyon, but also a similar scenario to the petrified forest was created over a short time because of a huge flow of water from molten snow atop the mountain due to heat from the volcanic activity. Rock only breaks when bent. But bent strata in stone shows that it was soft during the bending. So is such found near the Grand Canyon. In addition, why are parts of trees found through layers of strata?

If I should consider your objection based on the view of the Horseshoe Curve as a meander, I would have a problem! Aren’t meanders products of growth over time? Why isn’t the material in the center of the bend smooth from the growth? Based on my little bit of knowledge, the center terrain that’s as high as and similar to the surrounding terrain makes it hard for me to call it a true meander. Why otherwise even if I consider the possible explanations I read based on long periods of time. There are other factors that caused the bends. There’s a bend in the river that’s sharper than the Horseshoe Curve caused by the terrain.


(James McKay) #143

But that is about the same as the depth of the Mediterranean. My point still stands.

Nothing of the sort is found in the Grand Canyon. Answers in Genesis’s claim that the rock strata in the Grand Canyon are folded without fracturing is contradicted by photographs on their own website.

I am yet to see a single example of polystrate fossils where the strata at the top have been dated significantly differently to the strata at the bottom.

Earl, if you want to refute my point about the meandering of the Horseshoe Curve, you must point to a computer model or laboratory experiment in which fast flowing water has been demonstrated producing that kind of meandering. Anything else is just waffle.

(Mitchell W McKain) #144

In human law? Yes. In Christianity? No.

No, I do not. Entitlement is the opposite of grace and faith. If you think this is something to which you are entitled as are wages, then it is neither grace nor faith. Peace from entitlement is only the peace which comes from self-deception. True peace comes from faith which simply entrusts salvation to the hands of God. There is a critical important difference here. Looking at salvation as one of your accomplishments in life is a mockery of everything taught by Jesus and Paul in the Bible!

You may have been striking a bargain with God, but I see that as delusional. It is not about making a deal. It is not about paying for salvation with some kind of exchange such as performing a ritual or selling your intellectual and moral integrity. THAT is a deal with the devil!

What is my motivation? God’s character is sufficient motivation for my worship. I love what is good and choose what is right, and do what is right for its own sake and not as a bargain for some reward. It is who I am because that is who I choose to be. I follow Aristotle in virtue ethics, that the most important thing in the difference between good and evil is what you see when you look in the mirror – do you even want to look in the mirror because what will you see? a man, or a monster? It is not that I am without sin, but I reject it whenever I can, and when I cannot for whatever reason then I ask God for help and leave it in His hands.

Your response suggests that you have to be crazy to do anything except only what is completely self-serving. And that simply isn’t true. You may indeed be like that. But that simply isn’t true of everyone.


There is a difference between accusing people and pointing out what is wrong. I have done only the latter and if people feel accused because of it then that is their doing in their own thoughts.

Nonsense. The crusades were many and over a period of four centuries. So the reasons were hardly singular but to claim that a threat of attack and enslavement were the motivation for most of them is completely absurd. There was a Turk known as Baibars who obtained slaves from Russia and this motivated some of his dealings with Europe in the 13th century. And it is true that when the crusades ended with fall of the Crusader states, many Christians who failed to evacuate Cyprus and not killed were enslaved. The Barbary pirates and the Arab slave trade they catered to came centuries later, but using this as justification after the fact is ridiculous.


You are correct that fast water cannot form a meandering river. You need steady flow.
After the draining of the lake that covered the Colorado and San Juan basin, there would have been subsurface water trapped in the sedimentary layers (left over from Noah’s flood). The draining of the lake would have dropped the water table allowing those subsurface waters to steadily escape supplying the steady flow to cut the meanders.
Read about 3/4 down the page

(Earl L Dunn) #146

Hello Mitch,
Your quotes:

You are correct that one does not serve God only to be rewarded with material niceties. Far from it! Too many unfortunately live as if that’s the case even though it’s not.

Service toward God from the heart is out of gratitude for what God has already done that man cannot do–the restoration of peace with Him because of cancellation of the sin debt that no one can pay. You may read how the disciples were willing even to be in trouble with the law and face martyrdom for promoting the gospel cause. Do you remember the scriptures that instruct us to seek things above and not earthly things (Colossians 3:1-5)?

Are you counting the gratitude toward Him that brought essential redemption and consequent friendship with Him as an act of delusion? Are you saying that you are supposedly pleasing God with the help of Aristotle and without the gratitude? Proverbs, Decalogue, etc. not sufficient guides for virtue ethics? Are you supposedly pleasing God so well that you may rightfully condemn Christians even though you say that you are one also!

How do you define the worship for which God is sufficient? You said earlier that Jesus is good. Is He your Lord?

When it comes to looking in the mirror, I do so daily to make sure I see the monster in me that I need to honestly confess. I also make sure that I don’t find myself so busily pointing out your faults that I overlook my own.

As for Christian history including that of the crusades, have you listened to a very excellent historian by the name of Willian Federer? Here’s a link to his broadcasts and some of his books. This info is not meant for discussion here, but only for general knowledge.


(Earl L Dunn) #147

Hi James,

The material given by DIC contains much to help for this topic.

Caution: the reason that many have a hard time believing there was a global flood of Biblical proportions is not because of the field of science.


(Mitchell W McKain) #148

Serving God for a reward of any kind is contrary to a life of faith.

Ah yes, the backhanded rheoric for sneaking entitlement under the table. Call it something already done even though the fact is that you are still a sinner, not only because you have sinned but because you will continue to do so. The word the Catholics used for this imagined forgiveness of future sins was “indulgences.”

Whatever gratitude you feel towards God is justified a million times over. The delusion is thinking that you are entitled to something for some reason.

It is for God to say what is pleasing to Him. What I see when I look in the mirror is about my own determination to do what is good and right.

Jesus and Paul condemn both judgment and entitlement (ultimately the same thing really). Salvation/judgement is and always will belong to God alone for Him to give and carry out. Condemnation goes to anyone who thinks they can take these things on themselves either so say someone is damned or to say that someone is heaven bound.

You sound like the rich man in Matthew 19. Nothing is sufficient. “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

(James McKay) #149

But not a computer model demonstrating that floods can produce mile-deep tight meanders.

That is simply not true.

I have no problem believing that the Flood was a real, historical event. But the idea that it covered the whole of planet Earth CANNOT be reconciled with the evidence in any way, shape or form. Attempts to do so simply do not respect the basic rules and principles of mathematics and measurement.

Besides, don’t forget that the young-Earth RATE scientists themselves admitted that to squeeze the radiometric evidence into the year of the Flood would have released enough heat to raise the Earth’s temperature to 22,000°C.

(Earl L Dunn) #150

Hello Mitch,

Yes, we are yet sinners but a believers daily walk with Jesus brings daily grace to overcome.

Whether we are speaking of entitlements or not, there are good things that Jesus want for you for your satisfaction, fulfillment, and for equipping you. Is it not?


(Earl L Dunn) #151

Hello James,

But the ultimate authority called the word of God (the Bible) informed us.

No Biblical flood? No evidence? Ok. Go on with that thought so that Mr. Reality will grade you accordingly. Go on.


(Mitchell W McKain) #152

Indeed, God has always wanted so much for His children. Jesus said, “I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.” But this doesn’t mean we are entitled and when you think so then it all turns to evil. So called Xtians thinking they are entitled to the land of the American Indians so they slaughtered them. So called Xtians thinking they are entitled to slaves and so they paid men to ship them like cattle from Africa. So called Xtians thinking they are entitled to dictate what people must believe and so they burned people alive for believing differently. And religion teaches entitlement to heaven via selling indulgences in some form/name or another, because it has twisted religion into a tool of power and profit.

One particularly pernicious way in which this is done is to focus heavily on the passages using the metaphors of battle, because in a war any evil seems justified as a matter of survival. But it is not really a war and not a matter of survival and so their “lies for Jesus” and other things are not justified after all. What is really going on is that people have different religious opinions for which they have not the slightest proof or evidence and thus have no justification whatsoever for forcing their beliefs on other people. But the standard tactics of warfare is to demonize the other side in order justify murdering them, and so it goes with religion twisted in this way as they charge the people with different religious opinions as being minions of the devil just as the Pharisees did with Jesus actually.

(Earl L Dunn) #153

Hello Mitch,

Do you remember what happened to Peter when he took his eyes off Jesus when walking on the water (Matthew 14:30)? A boisterous wind may be one thing to take ones eyes off the Lord but should people be allowed to do the same?

You may sell your car and never again hit the road because of the drunken drivers but beware of the other extreme! You don’t want to rob Jesus of you, a good driver because of your fear of the bad drivers, do you?

If you insist on going the way you are going, I say to you also: continue to go so that Mr. Reality will grade you accordingly.


(Mitchell W McKain) #154

Matthew 14:30 is no excuse for blind faith. The zealots of Jesus day saw no reason why they shouldn’t go forward in faith to throw out the Roman idolaters. But Jesus knew better, making it quite easy for Him to predict the future destruction of the temple. Religious people have a bad habit of confusing what they want with what God wants – that is what entitlement does to religion. It is why the most religious people of Jesus’ day, the Pharisees, saw only the devil at work in Jesus. They assumed that they were entitled to dictate the will of God, while the zealots assumed they were entitled to freedom from Roman rule.

Blind faith is not what Jesus taught.

Luke 14: 28 For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it? 29 Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30 saying, ‘This man began to build, and was not able to finish.’ 31 Or what king, going to encounter another king in war, will not sit down first and take counsel whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32 And if not, while the other is yet a great way off, he sends an embassy and asks terms of peace.

Matthew 10: 16 “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.

If you insist on going the way you are going, I will give you the warning of Jeremiah to Judah, believing you are entitled to something from God is a mistake, and you will find yourself defeated just as they did.

(Earl L Dunn) #155

OK. Bye.
Oops! Wait! Let me say this one more thing!

OK. You woke the monster in me so that I would have you burned at the stakes (note the word “stakes” is plural instead of singular). You will be carried to a joint where high risk gambling is taking place and your mouth will be stuffed with jalapeno peppers at their peak and you will be forced to chew vigorously! The job will be done. There will be no fire. Wont dat be nice?

That will be because you wont gimmie my entitlements!



(James McKay) #156

The ultimate authority called the Word of God (the Bible) also tells us that we must respect the basic rules and principles of mathematics and measurement. Deuteronomy 25:13-16 makes that clear.

I didn’t say that. Re-read the first sentence in the extract from my post that you quoted. I said, I have no problem believing that the Flood was a real, historical event.

Hebrew scholars tell me that a regional Flood is perfectly consistent with the Hebrew text of Genesis 6-9. The Flood could possibly even have been a regional manifestation of a much more wide ranging catastrophe (e.g. an asteroid strike). Possibilities such as these are not “no Biblical Flood.”

What on earth do you mean by that? Are you trying to pit the Bible against reality or something?

(Earl L Dunn) #157

Hi James,

But what should we do with Genesis 7:17-24?

What about the millions of dead things found that were buried quickly? Are they found throughout the world or only in certain places in the world?

Help me!

I’m only saying that reality will confirm the Bible correct independently of what we may think. You know what I meant.



Try quintillions (that’s 1 with 18 zeros) of belemnite fossils found in one layer. Way more than could have been alive at the same time.

Yes some are found throughout the world and strangely enough always in the same order. I have never been able to figure out how a global flood would be able to do that.

Or how about fossil pollen that is only found above a given level and never below. And this is also seen world wide.

(James McKay) #159

See the footnote on verse 20 in the NIV:

Or rose more than fifteen cubits, and the mountains were covered

Yes they are, but as @Bill_II pointed out, there are too many of them, and they are sorted in ways that are simply not consistent with a single flood.

I don’t have a problem with that. However, reality may indicate to you that you have misunderstood the Bible, and if you are reading a young Earth or a global extent to the Flood out of the Bible, then I would say you have definitely misunderstood it, because reality simply cannot be reconciled with these things by any stretch of the imagination.


I think I brought in the wrong quote. Sorry about that. I will try to fix it.

(Earl L Dunn) #163

Hi Bill,

Over 95% of all fossils found are lower marine fossils that cannot but be in great numbers. Much less than 1% are land animal fossils. (See the third paragraph in the link below.) In addition, the fact that they are mostly marine animals serve as reminders that the flood affected the crust of the earth including the ocean floor because of chaotic continental drift due to opening of the fountains of the deep.

Fossil marine creatures on tops of mountains remind us of their rise from the ocean floor. The rain not only came from the sky, but from the fountains of the deep that forced water at extremely high pressure into the atmosphere. Study of the continental break-up help us to understand the effects of the fountains.

I only know that the worldwide flood covered every living thing,


Hi Jim,

So we see that the water was about 22 feet above the mountain tops.

You probably by now read my answer to Bill II.

If the flood was not worldwide but instead local, why did God command Noah to go through the trouble to build the huge ark instead of simply having him migrate to a safe location? Lot only needed to leave Sodom instead of having to build a fireproof structure to avert the judgment on it and Gamorrah.

With death approaching people outside of the ark in Noah’s case, wouldn’t some have found a way to the safe location to escape? Was it possible for the flood as described to be higher than sea level if it was local? What other flood do you or I know of similar magnitude that lasted as long as Noah’s flood?

You are correct that we are fallible beings that may be wrong. But isn’t the Bible the standard by which we are guided in our understanding of it? Road maps may also be read wrong. But children have their parents to guide them with the difficult issues. So do each of us have our hotline to our Parent (Prayer life) for guidance.

I only know to make triple sure that I am guided to receive a decent final grade from Mr. Reality (you know who I’m speaking of)! It is written," be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is (Ephesians 5:17)."

Knowledge of the worldwide flood of Noah’s time is inconvenient truth to some. Not only is it such that God judged the sin-saturated world of Noah’s day, but that God lives today to judge the present world when the time is ripe. We see the rapid approach of sin to the point of saturation.

But we find comfort with the fact that God’s people everywhere are praying for those that have yet to face the inconvenient truth that they may run to God while His hands are still outstretched for us to receive mercy and reconciliation and thus to enter the “Door.”

We thus know this as God’s will for us all to go to Him as our advocate.