If you want to argue a Scriptural theory you must answer with Scripture

[RichardG (Richard Gillett)]

It has been said many times on this forum that

If you want to argue against a Scientific theory you must use science
(or words to that effect)

Why dos that principle not apply to Scripture?

When someone makes an assertion based on their understanding of Scripture, people are quite happy to answer with
But that contradicts science! (usually either evolution of geological dating)

And?

If you are going to be so guarded of your scientific theories that they cannot be answered with anything other than science (not even philosophy) what gives you the right to demand that a Biblical scholar (Or believer) must listen to your science?

I have even been told that I am not allowed to think any other way than scientifically!

WOW.

Someone call the thought police!

Richard

[Mervin_Bitikofer]

@RichardG

But that contradicts science! (usually either evolution of geological dating)

And?

I think you may be mistaking the basic posture of many on this forum (or at least I’ll presume I can speak for at least a few of ‘us’ here.) It isn’t science in and of itself that we put on the throne as the ultimate concern - the way, the truth, the life, etc. But that middle word in that last triad - “the truth” - that, I think I can say does occupy a kind of “highest concern” for so many of us here, believers of many varied stripes and nonbelievers too. And it is in the pursuit of that that you see us expending our efforts and labors. So the question naturally arises - what all tools do we have in our toolboxes to aid us in searching out truth? There is more than one - but among them, is science. And we believers would also see the Bible as essential - and properly understood, neither physical reality, nor the Bible will in the end be inconsistent with each other - or so says the faith of most believers here. So it isn’t that we’re “favoring science over scripture” - we’re just favoring truth over falsehood, using whatever tools God has given us to use to discern between the two (and as scriptures teach us to do after all!). And science happens to be universally useful and unsurpassed for that (even if limited to the physical cosmos as its domain of application) so that everybody of whatever faith (or no formal faith at all) can at least find agreement in that if they’re willing (and any’common-domain’ turf is valuable turf to live into and to cultivate these days!)

Now - make no mistake, (speaking more specifically just as a Christian believer now) - even Truth itself can become an idol if one just stops there. There is also “the way” and “the life” in that triad as well. “The Way”, our ethics and imperatives (what we ought to do) is vitally important, and “The Life” our relationships and community with God and each other - we all need that too! Science can’t help much with those latter two (but it can help some - by helping us cull away falsehoods we might otherwise hold on to about creation - which may warp our understanding of God then too) - but no - our whole project requires more than just one useful tool. Scriptures, as curated to us by Christ himself and his apostles, also help us see the world aright. But practitioners in scriptures can get them wrong too, just as practitioners in science (often the same people) have the humility to see that science isn’t infallible - in fact, it is the very recognition of that which gives science the strength it has! And that humility is a very Christian thing (though not exclusively so) to have and to hold on to! So it makes no sense that so many Christians throw that gift (of humility) away when it comes to learning how to use scriptures. It is our privilege to be able to sit at the feet of Christ as His perpetual students (never as ‘graduates’ - there’s the rub where so many of us Christians tend to wander away, falling in love with our own certitudes instead!) No - it’s at Christ’s feet in an eternal apprenticeship of life where all things (physical and spiritual) can now be approached in the context set by Christ and under His rule - who is not just the truth, but the way and the life also. If we stop short of finding our place of final rest at his feet, then even “our project” (the way, the truth, the life) itself has become just yet another even larger idol, and we still see Christ as merely a means toward some other end that we have in mind, rather than Himself being that ultimate End, the “Omega” - the only ultimate concern from whom and for whom all other valuable concerns can find their proper place and only true fulfillment.

[RichardG (Richard Gillett)]

@Mervin_Bitikofer

favoring truth over falsehood

Ah truth…

So Scripture is not the ultimate Truth.

And can only be read in respect to our view of reality (science?)

Because Scripture and science are not in opposition (except when they are)

I wonder.

Who (or what) defines (decides on) Truth (or reality for that matter)

@Mervin_Bitikofer

“the truth” - that, I think I can say does occupy a kind of “highest concern”

Assumes that you have it

@Mervin_Bitikofer

Bible as essential - and properly understood

And who decides this? Who dictates how I read Scripture and understand it?

@Mervin_Bitikofer

So it isn’t that we’re “favoring science over scripture” - we’re just favoring truth over falsehood, using whatever tools God has given us to use to discern between the two.

But you are still claiming that science has a place in theology and Scriptural understanding Why?

@Mervin_Bitikofer

And science happens to be universally useful

There are some who might disagree. I may not be one of them but it seems that science can be forced upon people. If you noted the phraseiology and the first statement of the OP. Perhaps there is a double standard here?

Forgive me. I am playing Devil’s advocate, and for good reason.

There is an arrogance and certitude on this forum that claims “Truth” , “RIght” and the converse. And there is a vile tendency to insult and belittle anyone who does not conform or agree.

“I reserve the right for someone to be wrong!”

Is aloof and condescending.

It would appear that we have no respect for anyone who does not see things the way we do.

And there are some who feel that their view is so “right” that others must not only bow to it, but be forced to think as they do.

Th aim here is not to dictate or condemn, but to highlight and expose, something that goes against the rights and freedom that Constitutions like the USA hold as paramount.

It is not the right to be wrong.

It is the right to have your own view without judgement, or condemnation or someone else claiming a superior one (AKA They are right and I am wrong)

Richard

[Mervin_Bitikofer]

@RichardG

And who decides this? Who dictates how I read Scripture and understand it?

Christ.

@RichardG

But you are still claiming that science has a place in theology and Scriptural understanding Why?

Because favoring Truth over falsehood is an important thing taught in scriptures and most importantly - modeled for us by Christ.

@RichardG

… it seems that science can be forced upon people.

Replace the word ‘science’ with ‘reality’ above, and then re-read your sentence and try to make sense of it. Because science (knowledge, truth, accuracy, etc.) certainly cannot be forced on people - we here in the U.S. are making ourselves the tragic circus spectacle for the world to see how science can be ignored … until it can’t. Is reality guilty, then, of ‘forcing itself’ on everyone? I’m not claiming that science = perfect understanding of reality, mind you. I’m only saying that science is the pursuit of ever more accurate understandings of reality (and has shown itself adept in that pursuit beyond any other ideologies that attempt to rival it.)

@RichardG

It is the right to have your own view without judgement, or condemnation or someone else claiming a superior one (AKA They are right and I am wrong)

So how is a math teacher to respond when a student in math class earnestly insists that 2+2=5? Is the teacher being aloof and condescending if they attempt to point out the inaccuracy?

[RichardG (Richard Gillett)]

@Mervin_Bitikofer

So how is a math teacher to respond when a student in math class earnestly insists that 2+2=5?

It always comes down to the same thing:

An example that proves your point nd ignores mine.

Belief, even Scripture is not about right and wrong!

It is not “Black and White”. It is not empirical. It is not even “Reality”. It is Faith, belief and trust.

You are asking me to trust your views over my own. You are telling me that I am wrong. You are claiming superiority.
(And you do not seem to see it)

It seems that when people read something here they automatically “judge” it and “view” it by their own certitude and belief. They do not even follow the argument or accept the reasoning because it is not how they see it.

I am sorry, but you have (unwittingly) proved my OP

Richard

[Mervin_Bitikofer]

@RichardG

It is not “Black and White”. …

That’s a very true statement in so many domains! But you’re pressing down into that very fundamental space where scriptures seem to get very stark about it - there is truth, and then there is everything else (not truth) - that is after one has cleared away all confusions, ambiguities, possible misunderstandings and drilled down with perfect clarity into something. There is good, and then there is evil (at the core). You’re right that our access to those things is not “black and white” - even though we too often pretend it is. But to disallow ourselves from ever having permission to make those judgments lest it be ‘arrogance’ or ‘superiority’ is very dangerous indeed.

@RichardG

You are asking me to trust your views over my own. You are telling me that I am wrong. You are claiming superiority.
(And you do not seem to see it)

But I do learn from you! Why do you refuse to learn from anyone else here? Surely you aren’t claiming that you’re infallible? I’m not.

You obviously believe some things. Meaning that you think those things are the true and right things to believe. And that carries then an implied disagreement you have with those who don’t share in those beliefs with you. As in “you think then that they are wrong” even if you don’t say so outloud. Does that make you arrogant and superior?

[RichardG (Richard Gillett)]

@Mervin_Bitikofer

Why do you refuse to learn from anyone else here? Surely you aren’t claiming that you’re infallible? I’m not.

Who says that i do not learn?

Jus because I do not agree or submit?

Hmm

@Mervin_Bitikofer

But to disallow ourselves from ever having permission to make those judgments lest it be ‘arrogance’ or ‘superiority’ is very dangerous indeed.

Perhaps there is a difference between personal certitude and freedom of thought?

What I learn is why and how you believe. it does not mean that i then have to align myself with that.

I am not asking you, or anyone else to believe what I do about Scripture, theology, even science, but it would seem that is not reciprocated.
(And I am mocked, and insulted, and belittled and… if not by you, by many)

Richard

[Mervin_Bitikofer]

@RichardG

Who says that i do not learn?

Jus because I do not agree or submit?

Good points. Thanks for the reminder.

@RichardG

What I learn is why and how you believe. it does not mean that i then have to align myself with that.

Agreed.

@RichardG

I am not asking you, or anyone else to believe what I do about Scripture, theology, even science, but it would seem that is not reciprocated.

Well … but isn’t your continued participation here (in the forum in general) an implied request that others at least consider what you’re saying? As in, you do think you have something to share (and you obviously do). And what is the reason for sharing it if not in the hope that somebody else might find it compelling?

I’m curious what your view of the role of a teacher is. In a classroom setting there is typically an asymmetry of sharing, as in it’s usually expected that a teacher will be doing more of the teaching and students will be doing the greater share of learning. Do you see that as a built-in arrogance on the part of the teacher?

Not that this forum is a classroom with some clear set of teachers who oblige everybody else to stay in the role of listening students (though I understand how it feels and looks that way to some. - and I should add, that I spend much more time in a student role in this forum than anything else, and one of the dunce students, no less, on so many topics. We’re in the presence of a lot of brain power here, both latent and trained. It would be some rare genius who has nothing to learn from anyone here, or actually I’m confident that nobody, short of Christ himself, fits into the category of ‘always teacher’) But in any setting such as this forum where most agree that truth exists (and therefore falsehood exists too - do you agree with that?) - in such a setting then, there is a near certainty that lots of wrong things will be stated. How would you go about addressing something that you can clearly see must be wrong?

[RichardG (Richard Gillett)]

@Mervin_Bitikofer

’m curious what your view of the role of a teacher is

May I first quote some words of Jesus. from Matt 23

• 8 But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers.[a] 9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. 10 Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. 11 The greatest among you shall be your servant.

There is a dynamic between teacher and pupil that goes beyond “I want your view”. At the end of the day “The teacher is right”.

Therefore, to accept someone as a “teacher” you have to accpet that “they are right”.

What Jesus was actually saying was that you should not place a person in higher authority than God. IOW if you are believing them, they are sitting at least on equal to, if not higher than God.

What you seem to be missing is that my belief system accepts the existence of other beliefs. That would not seem to be the case with most people here.

We are back to "right " and “wrong”.

@Mervin_Bitikofer

And what is the reason for sharing it if not in the hope that somebody else might find it compelling?

Understanding.

Realising that not everyone does, or needs to think as you do.

Being able to put yourself in someone else’s head and seeing what theyy see.

Perhaps learning humility? (don’t go there now, pllase)

The reciprocal question is

Why should anyone feel that they are entitled (empowered) to teach? (here)

Do I teach? Yes. Do I think I am right? Yes. Do i accept the possibility of an alternative “right”? Yes. (That appears to be a difficult one)

There is a fallacy that a “Preacher” is there to convert or change or teach. In the past, maybe, but I have learned over the past 40 years or more that what is required is an understanding of the possibilities and viewpoints, and then to leave the final decision to the individual. (Otherwise I am speaking as God not for Him)

Richard

[Mervin_Bitikofer]

@RichardG

What you seem to be missing is that my belief system accepts the existence of other beliefs. That would not seem to be the case with most people here.

Such acceptance is rare gold these days - if you mean by that a willingness to peacefully co-exist and not read some existential threat of war into everything you don’t agree with - then I want to be right there with you, brother! May your tribe increase in that regard.

You have a lot of other good thoughts there too, - more could be said about the instruction not to call anybody else ‘teacher’ (or ‘father’ either) even though those are legitimate roles people do inhabit in some smaller ways, so … I struggle with that too - at least taken on its face, and I suspect one shouldn’t try to turn that into yet another new legalism, but delve past our plain English translation of it for what Jesus wants of us. Because I’m pretty sure He didn’t mean that nobody should ever instruct anybody else (or the banishment of any word that might acknowledge their role as an instructor in some sense, still obviously suborninate to Christ.)

But … I need to get on with my day here. Thanks for this exchange! Hope to be back later to see what else is cooking.

[adamjedgar (adam james edgar)]

@Mervin_Bitikofer

And we believers would also see the Bible as essential - and properly understood, neither physical reality, nor the Bible will in the end be inconsistent with each other - or so says the faith of most believers here. So it isn’t that we’re “favoring science over scripture” - we’re just favoring truth over falsehoo

Omg Marvin…thats a doozy of a claim and its got some huge huge problems…the most obvious would be the following:

The bible states emphatically that all creation has been corrupted by sin
Man when left to his own devices does evil…we are not objectively good in nature
Christ has specifically state in Revelation 21 that he is going to remove sin and evil from this world and then restore all creation which sin corrupted.

You use the term truth in complete ignorance of biblical statements that contradict what you claim is truth…one of those being that man isnt currently naturally capable of even being truthful or good!

The apostle James says, our best efforts at righteousness are but filthy rags. It seems to me that you circumvent this dilemma by suggeeting Godliness and goodliness are unrelated theological concepts, that their is no correlation between the two…that we can play a game of pretend there and say humanity without God can be good. The bible clearly denies that claim…and there is scientific “truth” being flushed down the shitter by the very religious writings you claim to follow side by side in apparent harmony with naturalisms science.

Im really sorry to be so blunt, however but your statement there as a Christian is absolute rubbish.

[adamjedgar (adam james edgar)]

@RichardG

There is a dynamic between teacher and pupil that goes beyond “I want your view”. At the end of the day “The teacher is right”.

Therefore, to accept someone as a “teacher” you have to accpet that “they are right”

Richard,
A teachers job is to impart knowledge as determined through set curriculum. For a church pastor this means teaching the denominational curriculum.

Its not a matter of right or wrong…that perspective is above said teacher/preachers pay grade

(I say that both as a pastors kid whos witnessed it, and as a teacher who was trained in following government set curriculum in the classroom)

Whether we accept it or not, teaching is indoctrination…that is the underlying goal. An overgeneralisation …the ultimate aim is to win.

If you were raised and currently living in North Korea, im sure you would be certain that what you were being taught about the rest of the world was absolute truth right?

[RichardG (Richard Gillett)]

@adamjedgar

Richard,
A teachers job is to impart knowledge as determined through set curriculum. For a church pastor this means teaching the denominational curriculum.

Did you actually read the Scripture?

Did you distinguish between a School or educational teacher and a Christian teacher?

Would you claim that denominational beliefs need to be emphasised and placed above all others?
(My denomination has a very broad church view)

@adamjedgar

The bible states emphatically that all creation has been corrupted by sin
Man

I am sorry but that is a specific view, not mine, or even universal. IOW you are doing precisely what I am arguing against (Just from the opposite end)

Richard

[RichardG (Richard Gillett)]

@Mervin_Bitikofer

if you mean by that a willingness to peacefully co-exist and not read some existential threat of war into everything you don’t agree with - then I want to be right there with you,

At the risk of having the last word…

Is there a difference between Tolerance and Acceptance here?

Richard

[SkovandOfMitaze (Mi)]

Science has a specific methodology. Scripture is a combination of not just verses, but philosophical arguments and culture. Things like contextual analysis for what it meant to who originally heard it, or tracing arguments like the work done by segregationist versus abolitionist. Science is messy but not as messy as religious books like the Bible, which can even be argument with which Bible…. There has been several collections.

[Randy]

Richard, I hope you are well.

I’m a bit confused. If we used Qur’anic thought, can we use only the Qur’an to respond, or can we use the real world to clarify? Am I missing the point?
Thank you!

It’s about 0 to 2 degrees Celsius here–I hope it’s warming up over there. My niece completed a Bible study course last winter at a castle near Scotland–it was beautiful and green!
Randy

[RichardG (Richard Gillett)]

@Randy

If we used Qur’anic thought, can we use only the Qur’an to respond, or can we use the real world to clarify?

That would be the logic of the OP (based on the Logic of Science quoted)

@Randy

Am I missing the point?

I don’t know. It depends how far you take that logic.

In terms of dogmatic authority Scriptural belief then, nothing ese is valid.

The “point” is that people here are quite happy to use science or “reality” to check or counter check what Scripture is saying yet they refuse to accept Scripture as a check for Science.

What is good for the goose is good for the gander?

Please understand I am not claiming a specific answer I am just pointing out a glaring hypocrisy in the approach (either way)

Don’t get me wrong, I know why scientists claim what they do (and I disagree with them) I just wonder whether they realise the hypocrisy. (probably not)

@Randy

It’s about 0 to 2 degrees Celsius here–I hope it’s warming up over there

Its about the first really warm day we have had this year, but whether that is a blip or a trend, who knows? (Probably not the weather forecasters)

Richard

[Randy]

@RichardG

The “point” is that people here are quite happy to use science or “reality” to check or counter check what Scripture is saying yet they refuse to accept Scripture as a check for Science.

Thank you. I find the warming up and the increased sunlight really helps my mood! Tomorrow will be warmer and sunnier yet.

My niece was at Capernwray–I remember now.

It sure was green and beautiful.

So, if we take the name “science” away–would you agree that no dogma, Islam, Hinduism, or Christianity, can change the way we interpret reality–that reality should dictate how we interpret holy scriptures?
It is difficult.
Thank you.

[St.Roymond]

@Mervin_Bitikofer

@RichardG

And who decides this? Who dictates how I read Scripture and understand it?

Christ.

. . . and the grammar, the vocabulary, the historical-cultural-literary-worldview context.

@Mervin_Bitikofer

@RichardG

But you are still claiming that science has a place in theology and Scriptural understanding Why?

Because favoring Truth over falsehood is an important thing taught in scriptures and most importantly - modeled for us by Christ.

Interesting point. But if it has a place, science has to come after historical-grammatical analysis.

@RichardG

You are asking me to trust your views over my own.

No, he’s asking you to trust reason, logic, evidence, over imagination – in other words, he’s invoking Logos.

(Stop making it all about you!)

@Mervin_Bitikofer

But to disallow ourselves from ever having permission to make those judgments lest it be ‘arrogance’ or ‘superiority’ is very dangerous indeed.

Especially since Christians are admonished to make such judgments.

[RichardG (Richard Gillett)]

@Randy

So, if we take the name “science” away–would you agree that no dogma, Islam, Hinduism, or Christianity, can change the way we interpret reality–that reality should dictate how we interpret holy scriptures?
It is difficult.

i think you have shown insight and understanding that is rare on this forum.

Reality is personal. Faith is personal. Our understanding is unique and personal.

All these things will temper our view of Scripture, and the result will be personal.

And there is nothing worse than being told that what you understand is invalid because it is personal (And not in agreement with them)

Or worse that you are “making things up”.

No one, not scientist, preacher, teacher or Pope can tell you that what you believe is wrong. (and therefore you must change your personal beliefs)

If you have a faith it is between you and God, no one else (especially me)

Richard