If Christmas was pagan, would it matter?


(RiderOnTheClouds) #1

Since that time of year is almost upon us, and this conversation is bound to come up every year, I feel as though I need to ask this question to the grinches out there:

Is there really anything inherently wrong with giving out gifts, engaging in charity, and spending time with family and friends?


(Matthew Pevarnik) #2

What do you think?


(RiderOnTheClouds) #3

I’m not even a Christian (I’m a Noachide gentile), I don’t really have a dog in the fight. But for the reasons I mentioned alone, I will continue to celebrate Christmas traditions.

(Just so you know, the thread is about the discussion of the pagan origins of Christmas)


(Laura) #4

I wasn’t even aware that we had any grinches on this forum. :smiley:


(RiderOnTheClouds) #5

I never said we did

Edit: spoke too soon!


(Matthew Pevarnik) #6

What if there were Pagan origins of Christmas? Or Sumerian origins of a mythological flood? Or many many other things in the Scriptures that share similar elements (an original chaos state, seaparatioj of heaven and earth and the dry land and the seas, etc.) but have a distinctly different theological message? Or can something only be good if it is was first invented by someone of Judeo-Christian background?


(Arnold J. Bur) #7

If you can afford to be Santa Claus then go ahead. [content edited by moderator]. During the reign of the Roman Emperor Constantine the Great (AD 306–337), “Christianity” … of the Roman Empire declared by edict in 380. He is revered as a saint and isapostolos in the Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodox Church, and various Eastern Catholic Churches… ( I visited an Orthodox Church and they recite the Apostle’s Creed which states, "we believe in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Yes, Catholic means Universal but that is the beginning of a One World Church. At the entrance they were selling incense sticks and when I entered there were pictures of “Saints” that had an incense holder in front and people were praying to the pictures. Also, my family used to be Catholic and we did the same thing with statues. Then I got saved.) It is about the death of Christ. A Mass. Many “Christians” fall for this and many denominations follow Catholic rituals like, infant baptism, robes, candles and reciting creeds. Of course, Jesus had to be born but no where in the bible does it say to celebrate His birth. Male infants up to two years old were murdered because Harod feared the New King. We should celebrate the Resurrection commonly mistaken for as Easter, the english name for the god of fertility, hence the bunnies and eggs. Also, a Catholic pagan non holy day. I told my kids I could wrap their slippers in a package for the 25th or they could have it now. It was winter so they said now would be better.


(RiderOnTheClouds) #8

???

How are any of those things antithetical to Christianity?

Nowhere does the Bible say ‘not’ to celebrate his birth either. Also, like I said, there is nothing inherently wrong with certain Christmas traditions.


#9

what-the-[content-would-be-removed-by-moderator-so-I-removed-it-already]


#10

Christmas doesn’t have pagan origins, but some of the traditions associated with Christmas do, such as the yule log.


(Matthew Pevarnik) #11

Wait slippers??!? Do you know the origins of slippers- according to the Internet:

It turn out, that they have come from East, exactly, appeared in one of inhabitant sultan harems. Then slippers were like a symbol of captivity, because even very freedom and constancy lovable concubine, didn’t dare to run away from harem to rocky road, in thin and from feet easy slippering, slippers. As for it, slippers were very comfortable and soft, when it was needed to sit down on low chairs, in pose with crossed legs above you. They were easy to take off, stepping on expensive Persian carpets.

You need to rethink twice about getting someone slippers as it clearly has unholy roots.


(Arnold J. Bur) #12

were they fluffy?


(Shawn T Murphy) #13

Yes, A December 25th Christmas was brought to us by the pagan ruler, Constantine. Jesus was born at the beginning of December. A forensic analysis of the following factors places his birth date at Dec 1, 7 BC.

  • Herod ruled from 33 to 4 BC.
  • Sentius Saturnius was the mayor of Judea from 9 to 6 BC.
  • Emperor Augustus ran a census in 8 BC to for tax purposes.
  • In 7 BC, the conjunction of the planets Jupiter and Saturn forming a rare star.

It was Constantine that we have to thank for much of the dogma that has clouded Christian teaching. He was the first of two pagan Emperors who bent Christian teaching to meet their political objects, bringing so much confusion into Christianity and so much death in the name of god. The gods that Constantine served were the three demonic gods that powerful earthly rulers have served since the beginning of times on earth: the three fallen archangels – Lucifer, Aholah and Aholibah. Known to the Egyptians as Amun, Horus and Hathor or to the Romans as Neptune, Venus and Minerva.

Constantine is known for expanding the reach of Christianity in most history books, but to the enlightened historians, like Jacob Burckhardt, he was just a brilliant politician that saw the potential of the Christian belief as a means to control the masses. In order to make Christianity palatable to the pagan masses, he did two things that still haunt us today.

  • Instead of celebrating Christmas at the beginning of the month of December, he moved the celebration to be coincidental to the pagan winter solstice celebration dedicated to sol invictus, the Roman sun god (Satan) that steals his light from Jesus.
  • Constantine embraced the concept of the trinity, as he was used to as a pagan serving three gods. This allowed him to grow the ranks of the faithful by converting pagans to Christians; without forcing them to give up their pagan beliefs.

(Randy) #14

Enns implies that the sacrifice system of the OT came from pagan practices as well; but I don’t think God is limited by our understanding. I think He accepts our hearts. Psalm 51:16-17 New Living Translation (NLT)

16
You do not desire a sacrifice, or I would offer one.
You do not want a burnt offering.

17
The sacrifice you desire is a broken spirit.
You will not reject a broken and repentant heart, O God.


(Mark D.) #15

Ahah! If Jesus was born 7 years before Christ how can he be the … yeah, no, just having a little sport here. Carry on.

Personally the best thing about Christmas for me is the music. But I hate to shop for anything and even more so for something someone else might want. Ugh.


#16

@Shawn_Murphy You might want to take a look at this thread

Jonathan posted a link to an post that pretty clearly takes that myth apart. Christmas was already established before the celebration of sol Invictus.


#17

My point was that there is no documentary evidence that Christians co-opted this day. But the myth is very widespread and many people believe it. You’ll probably see a television special or two next month making this claim. So if somebody believes that Dec 25 was co-opted from the pagans, he should point to documentary evidence.


(Mitchell W McKain) #18

If Christmas was pagan, would it matter?

Not to me it wouldn’t. I am not an anti-pagan Christian. I celebrate the elements of paganism in Christianity and only lament that paganism didn’t have a greater impact, at least in so far as giving us a greater respect for nature.


#19

The origins of Christmas isn’t pagan, although Christmas may have, over time, borrowed a thing or two from pagan practice. But whatever of it is thoroughly de-paganized. The pagans gave gifts and had meals on some holiday – big deal – that’s utterly irrelevant. I’m assuming if you took some pagans holiday, totally Christianized it and celebrated Christ, the pagan would think you were doing a pretty bad job of being a pagan.


(Mark D.) #20

It would be like being anti-fish just because you suspect you share an ancestor. Presumably every Christian has a pagan ancestor as well.