I’m having a crisis of faith

Going off of what Beagle said you may find it interesting to look into the wider ranges of interpretation on heaven and hell. What are they and ect… you’ve probably been mostly taught that only Christians go to heaven, that those who don’t profess faith go to hell and that’s where they are tortured and in torment forever and ever and ever.

Three common approaches to all of this are

  1. Eternal conscious Torment. ( alive forever in pain I’m hell )

  2. Conditional Immortality, also known as annihilationism. That’s where bad people die and remain dead forever. Only those found in favor of God receive eternal life. Hell is the lake of fire known as the second death. So the evil is not kept alive and tortured, it dies and only good remains.

  3. Universalism, the symbolism of hell that actually just means death, is played out further and death is symbolism for old ways dying and new ways comings. Everyone and everything is saved. All of creation cries out and is restored including even the worst people. They are brought into repentance though love the entire community, including their victims, are healed of pain and hurt and offer love and forgiveness. Some universalist believes Satan himself will be eventually saved and some don’t. I don’t really know much about universalism. Others here do though.

The last two have legs to stand on. The first one, not so much. Then there is the question of what exactly is restored creation. Are we in heaven? Does heaven overlap with earth? Is it already here? Are we still waiting? I have no opinion on it worth sharing. I have came to a Y where I don’t know how to make consistency work. I have mostly put it all on the back burner.

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Then there are sort of 1b options like “eternal complete separation from God, not necessarily with imposed punishments beyond that” which is more what I would tend towards, but not with high confidence.

I guess I’ll chime in with a 1c option of eternal diminishing conscious torment not as something done to us but something that we do to ourselves by our own self destructive habits (sin). Heaven and hell are not a matter of punishment or just deserts with a get out of jail free card from Christianity, but a choice we have for dealing with sin – we can accept God’s help in removing our sins or let them devour us from within. Some of us prefer to take seriously what Jesus says in Matthew 25:46 and Luke 16:19-31.

It’s called be dead xd. Body and soul destroyed.

I don’t believe that anybody will be forced into heaven. I’ve known some people who wouldn’t want to go there! They will be quite happy being eternally separated from God. And while Jesus is the only way to the Father, he is still able to save people who do not know him.

[EDIT: Fixed my last sentence]

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It sounds like you have gone through a lot of hard stuff. The experiences we go through make us the people we are and give us common ground to empathize with others, so in some sense, nothing is a wasted, but I hear your frustration at feeling like maybe you have invested a lot of time and effort into something that is not paying out for you in the long run. That is a hard place to be.

I don’t think faith is a conclusion one comes to, so I don’t think good arguments or good evidence produce faith. I also don’t think faith is mostly about what you rationally assent to being true. I think faith is a knowledge of God that comes from an encounter with God and firsthand experience with his love and his grace. You probably aren’t going to find that in a YouTube video or internet forum or a book on the historical evidence for Jesus. Plus, even if someone could present incontrovertible evidence that Jesus died and rose again, it would not “prove” that Jesus’ death and resurrection takes away your sin, reconciles you to God, and gives you access to eternal life. Those are all faith claims independent of the historical claim about Jesus’ dying and rising again.

I think if you announce to your friends and family “I am an atheist now,” what many of them will probably hear is an invitation to try to argue with you and convince you that you’re wrong. If that is what you are looking for, fine, but if you are really looking for emotional support, love, and acceptance, then maybe a better approach would be to straight out tell them you are struggling with holding on to your old beliefs and you are sad and frustrated and angry and need support. When people hear arguments, they usually respond with arguments but when people hear feelings they respond with empathy (hopefully, if they are decent human beings.).

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It’s hard to let go of the idea that God ought to be Santa’s big brother looking after us and fulfils our wishes upon prayer and that he promises us a place in a Cockaigne where we live happily ever after in eternal youth. You look for evidence of the resurrection as means of reassuring you of that as to be forever self and become a good Christian if your wishes are fulfilled. I believe in God if it means he brings me back together with my loved ones. Why would I believe in a God that does not deliver Cockaigne?

You can also read the resurrection of Christ in a different way as in following his crucifixion he is coming alive inside us. It might give you a wider understanding of life than just your physical existence. Life is the ability to move energy and matter at will. We can do that via our own agency but we can also execute the will of others. So in “Thy will be done” if we do not just say that as empty words but do that the origin of that will is exercising agency through us.
Now when you think of the time you spent at Carly’s grave talking to yourself like an idiot it would have only appeared like that to a person who does not understand the “self”. You clearly carry a part of Carly inside you and you were drawn to the place were Carly’s mortal remains were put to rest because it helped yourself to be closer to Carly’s self and project it outside of you. You may find the same thing if you go to places you shared with Carly that trigger memories that allow you to project Carly’s “self” outside of you. It is emotionally difficult and I hope you can identify someone who picks you up inbetween that can give you a big hug, as you seem to have found that going for the bottle does not help.

Unfortunately we are not always given the opportunity to help those who feel that longing to part from our material world far too early, but instead of going fully selfish and becoming an agent to those who deny God’s existence and exploit this selfishness you might find a better way. The thing is that you have to consciously open up your heart to allow Jesus to live in there. To live forever is the art to learn to live in Jesus heart. It begins by letting him live in yours. Carly wouldn’t mind as you will find that once you conciously open that door - there is space for many and even if some leave inbetween, they will always come back.

If you love God only on your terms and that he has to prove something to you you do not love him, but you love yourself. If one prove is found we go to look for the next one. It is one of the problems we face in human relationships as well, that we love someone for the sake of our own benefit - and that is not love as Jesus told and showed us.

So if you want to be an A-something become an Asantaist as Atheists are actually Santaists believing that if God - he would have to be like Santa

Any God worth His salt will fix that.

Why? Why do ask? You know the answer.

Eric, questioning your faith is part of being a Christian. “28 But let a man examine himself…” 1 Corithias 11.
So, we need to ask ourselves where we stand with God. And, there have been some very good prophets, who had some dark days. What gave them hope about whether or not God existed or if there faith was well placed, was remembering. Remembering what God’s Word has said. Remembering that what is observed is what the Bible has told us.
We can see that this World is breaking down. So, we can see, that this earth was at one time in a state of perfection. And then came sin and then came the break down.
This lets us know that what God’s Word has said is true. He tells us that He created all life. He set in the DNA of all life forms the ability to reproduce others of their own kind. And we see this occurring each time a baby is born to a family, a dog gives birth to more dogs, a cat gives birth to more cats, every time a bird lays an egg, and more birds hatch from that egg. All of this should give us courage to life up God’s Word as the standard He meant for it to be.
The greatest promise of God’s Word, is that He would never leave us or forsake us. He promisses that He is God, and that besides Him there is none other.
And He has promised that He who began the work of our salvation, He is ready, willing and able to complete that work of salvation. And all He requires of us, is to have faith. Have faith in His Word.
While there are some who waffle in what they are going to believe or not in His Word, God tells us that,“16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,”
2 Timothy 3.
It is so hard for us to know what to believe, when there are so many how claim to believe reject what God’s Word plainly states.
He created man as man. He didn’t form some creature that He later on made to be man.
This is not God’s Word has told us. And we must believe what God’s Word says. For as Peter has told us. "We must obey, (or believe), what God has said).
Trust in God’s Word. He promised to save each of us who believe in Him. And part of believing in Him is accepting what He has said in His Word.

Observe the masses, then run 180 degrees in the opposite direction, using your research and prayer to your creator.

Would you call horror films and zombies positive or negative, helpful or harmful? Minimized negative input and maximize positive input, in order to reconstruct your brain and personal future.

Dear Eric, You have been very brave to open up the way you have about all of your feelings. You have had a very hard series of blows to deal with. You will not rationally be able to answer all your questions but you must accept the faith that God has given you to cope with your life and the very deep hurts you have experienced. You have opened yourself up to unknown counselling on the internet. This was probably unwise as you have been given wrong and bad counsel. You would not just go to a random doctor or other advisor without a recommendation. I would not have opened myself to an unknown person.

There have been millions of people over the past two millennia who have accepted Christ as Savior! Some who have not even had a Bible, or who have just heard the truth and responded. Some may just had had a few verses or a copy of the Gospels.
There are plenty of Scriptures to support the fact that you can ask for the prayers of the saints/Saints and I will give you some to read. This has also been in the Church.

Stick to the basics that I am sure you know. Repent to the Lord for your lapse of faith. He will receive you back. You cannot prove faith by logic and reasoning as well as most of the Scriptures. Once again, God has already given you the faith as a gift.

When one talks to the deceased person, you are in a way praying. That is good and everyone does it. The Scriptures tell us to ask for the intercessions of the saints.

Others interceding for us:
James 5:16 ‘Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.’

Jesus as our intercessor:
Rom 8:34 ‘… Is it Christ Jesus, who died, yes, who was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us?’
Heb 7:25 ‘… Consequently he is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.‘

Further:
Revelation 8:4 mentions the prayers of the Saints ascending before God, and Jesus’ parable of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19–31 indicates that those who are “dead” can pray for the living.
God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

To deny that the departed saints in heaven are not able to intercede for us is also saying that Jesus is unable to interact with us and is in a way denying the power of Christ’s resurrection. He is the God of the living. Heaven is not cut off from us; it is connected to us and living, and there are ways for us still here on earth to engage with the heavenly. Denying this means rejecting the saving work of Christ on the Cross and His victory over death.
I hope that helps you and try not to be too academic and scientific about your faith.
We can chat further.

Eric,

If welcome and helpful, I had some thoughts to share - I have wrestled very deeply with many of these questions and examined and studied many of these topics in depth, as I wanted to be sure that my own belief was founded on something solid. So some thoughts, for what they are worth, and apologize in advance for the length:

First, just one quick observation:

I would humbly, but firmly, caution against “wanting” to believe anything except for the sole reason being that you are convinced it is true. The hope, comfort, and joy that is part of the Christian “package” may well be a good reason to give the religion due consideration, but the only reason to believe it is because you find it true. I think given your desire to see “evidence” that you most likely already agree with me there, but I wanted to mention that at least.

Conversely- I would also humbly, but firmly, caution against excluding a belief on the grounds that you might not want it to be true. I mention that since you mentioned in passing certain aspects of Christianity (at least some Christians) that appear to you as “cult-like.” It is good to be cautious, but I would likewise caution that the only reason to disbelieve Christianity, or even any particular Christian doctrine or teaching or practice, is because you find it to be objectively false - not because you don’t like various aspects of its belief, teaching, practice, etc.

To borrow from my hero C. S. Lewis: “If Christianity is untrue, then no honest man will want to believe it, however helpful it might be; if it is true, every honest man will want to believe it, even if it gives him no help at all.”

I genuinely appreciate and resonate with the reasoned caution on this point, and I wrestled with this very question some time ago. But as I thought through and discussed further, a few things came to my attention, and I don’t think the reasoning is a circular as it may at first appear:

Firstly, whatever “The Bible” may or may not be (especially the New Testament), it is at core a collection of ancient/historic writings. If there had been yet another historical account of the resurrection (say, written by Bartholomew), who had actually seen the resurrection, would you classify that as “extra-biblical” and thus allowable as evidence? Only if Bartholomew’s account had not made it into the canon of Scripture?

For instance, if, back in ~300 AD, Matthew, Mark, and John had been accepted as part of the biblical canon but, for whatever reason, Luke had been left out - would Luke then somehow count as an “Extra-biblical” source of knowledge about the resurrection and thus therefore be free from the argument for circular reasoning?

Point is, whatever later happened that incorporated these disparate historical accounts into one book we now know as “The Bible”, at core they remain ancient historic testimonies to the resurrection event. If you took their claim that Jesus resurrected, and that was the sole basis for your belief in the resurrection, then yes, indeed, that would be fallacious and circular reasoning. But as it is, what you have is historical accounts of the resurrection, which are unquestionably “evidence”. May or may not be convincing or adequate evidence, but they are evidence.

–Consider, by comparison: if we were discussing whether Thucydides actually witnessed some event or battle that he recorded himself witnessing in his “History of the Pelopenesian War”, then it would be fallacious and circular reasoning indeed to conclude that Thucydides did in fact witness said battle on the sole basis that he wrote that he witnessed said battle. If the question is as to whether or not Thucydides can be trusted about said claim, then yes, it is fallacious and circular to argue solely on the basis that “Thucydides said he saw it.”

But on the other hand, I’m sure you can recognize that it would be equally absurd and fallacious to exlcude the entire work “History of the Pelopenesian War” as legitimate evidence about that question, on the basis that using it would be “circular”, no? Thucydides made many claims in his history - many of which remain the sole source of our knowledge of such historical facts, and historians do not discount most of these events on that basis. His claims and accounts are historical evidence. We may or may not weigh certain his claims as being insufficient, erroneous, or the like, based on other criteria, but we don’t exclude his accounts entirely on the basis that using them would be “circular.”

So the historical evidence about the resurrection, as documented and contained in numerous written historical accounts, does in fact exist (regardless of when or how these documents were collected and canonized into what we now know as “the Bible.”) So, we can weigh these claims about a resurrection, examine them, cross-examine them, consider alternate explanations, and the like; but we can’t exclude these accounts on the basis that using them would be circular. they are claims of eyewitness testimony, etc. From which we examine, reason, and come to a conclusion.

So, a few final thoughts on the topic:

Firstly, it should be noted that the claims of the resurrection fulfill the main test for historicity - there are multiple, independent attestation that all affirm the same event. Whatever use or borrowing some gospels made on others as is hypothesized, it is generally agreed that the accounts of the crucifixion and resurrection in each of the four extant historical accounts of Jesus’ life are indeed independent - there are enough divergences that it is near hopeless to harmonize the accounts. Moreover, the differences in the accounts of the resurrection are favorite material for those that wish to do so make many claims of contradictions between these accounts.

But that said, what that in fact means is that each historian recorded an independent account of the resurrection - in other words, if all four gospels were near unanimous on specifics and details (as is the case about some other events in the gospels), one might think that there was just one account and the others copied. But the extremely different divergent accounts between the accounts, while all agreeing on the basic fact of the empty tomb and resurrection, mean that there are at least four independent witnesses to the basic core details of said event. Five, if you want to include Paul’s account of the numerous eyewitnesses in Galatians, and even more if you would include the passing references in Hebrews, I Peter, etc.

So you have (at least) five multiple, independent attestations, some of which explicitly cite eyewitness testimony, one of which explicitly specified that (at the time of writing) some of said eyewitnesses were alive if the claim wanted to be fact-checked by anyone. Whatever this is, it is historical evidence - the fact exists that it is well recorded and independently attested that many people in fact claimed to have seen said resurrection.

So - secondly, the question becomes, what to do with this evidence? The evidence should still be weighed - are these claims accurate and legitimate, or are they erroneous? Either these multiple claims and accounts were recorded because the event actually happened, or there must be an alternate explanation that better fits the facts. If you’re wrestling with the truth of Christianity, but you doubt the resurrection actually happened, i would humbly suggest that for the sake of intellectual consistency, you should pursue a better or more reasonable explanation: There are many that have been suggested over the years: Mass hallucination, conspiracy, legend, etc. As I have examined it myself, the other explanations are so ad-hoc, so far-fetched, so deeply fallacious, that actual resurrection really appears to be the only reasonable conclusion. To borrow again from Lewis:

“Collective hallucination, hypnotism of unconsenting spectators, widespread instantaneous conspiracy in lying by persons not otherwise known to be liars and not likely to gain by the lie–all these are known to be very improbable events: so improbable that, except for the special purpose of excluding a miracle, they are never suggested.”

Finally, a last thought - The multiple independent claims regarding the resurrection is there and it certainly gets one’s attention, and I certainly think is sufficient evidence for who Jesus is. But that said, it is not “proof” in the sense of being unassailable, not the same way that it might be if someone saw it themselves. But such a historic claim is so substantial, so monumental, that what it does is to force people to take that claim seriously - in combination with everything else we know about Jesus from said historical accounts… And we have to decide whether or not the entire thing is the world’s greatest hoax or that Jesus really was who he claimed to be. While the resurrection, by itself, doesn’t “prove” it, it should certainly get our attention and make us realize that we have to do something with such a monumental claim.

One last favorite thought of mine from Kierkegaard: “The miracle can demonstrate nothing, for if you do not believe him [Christ] to be who he says he is, then you deny the miracle. The miracle can make aware–now you are in the tension, and it depends upon what you choose, offense or faith.”

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For me the strongest evidence for Christianity is the fact that it seems the early first Christians who were alive during that time, including many who was part of his inner circle, believed it enough to die for it. That masters gave up slaves and greeted them as brothers in Christ over it. I am hard pressed to believe that they were all delusional or willing to die for a lie that protected no one

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Dear Eric, I find your story heartbreaking. Let’s see if a few things can help a bit.
First, you need to see that not everything needs proof. You can’t prove that the world we experience is real, and there’s no proof that 1 + 1 = 2. That doesn’t mean that there’s no world or that we don’t really know, that 1 +1 = 2. Most of what we directly experience is unprovable, but that isn’t needed because it is what we call “self-evident.” It is theories (guesses) that need proof. Here’s the point: God is not a hypothesis - guess we make to explain things. We who believe in God believe because we experience real contact with him. When we read the gospel we experience it to be self-evident that it is the truth about God from God. That’s why it doesn’t need proof.
One more thing. Scripture tells us that God created everything “visible or invisible.” But EVERYTHING is visible or it’s not, so Good created the laws of logic and math - the laws we use to construct proofs. But if God created those laws, then they don’t apply to him! They apply to the world he created but not to his originating Being. So we shouldn’t expect there to be proof of God’s reality, and whatever can be proven would thereby not be God.
I would like to send you a written explanation of these things. Please contact me at roy.a.clouser@gmail.com

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Needless to say I do not buy into the rather commonly accepted Gnostic gospel of salvation by believing in the right things. I see more faith in being true to your search for truth and believing according to your honest judgement than I do in a selling out of your integrity to some Pascal wager which is more a deal with the devil than anything to do with God. The Christian gospel is one of salvation by the grace of God and I do not believe faith is compatible with entitlement where you think salvation is one of your accomplishments in life (that is my reading of Matthew 19:16-26). I believe because it is my honest judgement and I do not think it earns me anything.

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