I’m having a crisis of faith

Faith & Science Conversation
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Hey Eric,
Sorry to hear what you’re going though, it sounds like a lot and I would recommend also seeing a therapist or psychologist who can help if you’re struggling with suicide or depression.

My own “personal journey” has me growing up in a Christian home, but during college and also during graduate school I started struggling with nihilism-moral nihilism, doubting the existence of God, wanting to die, etc. A lot of it was depression, but even a year after taking medication I was still struggling with the same thoughts. So I did what any person who wasn’t sure about Christianity perhaps should so-I picked up a Bible and started reading the gospels in the New Testament. It actually really helped me; I don’t want to say it “spoke” to me or anything, because I don’t know, but I started living out the teachings and my life slowly but surely improved. I’m not promising it will work, but it did help me.

In particular, some of the stuff Jesus said about judging other people was pretty raw-I felt called out. I was judging other people rather than trying to help. I wasn’t listening to others. I was struggling with anxiety which Jesus also talked about. This put me on a path to rediscovering Christianity in a way that really works in my life, and I have this sort of joy and peace that is really difficult to explain.

A lot of arguments for the existence of God (fine tuning, cosmological, etc) are compelling for showing at least the possibility or probability of a God existing (entire textbooks have been written on “natural theology”), but I don’t think most people come to Christianity because of these arguments-I think these arguments instead are ways of justifying or rationalizing the personal experience one has with God.

I also want to caution you from generalizing the experience you’ve had with Christians to Christianity as a whole. It sounds like you’ve interacted with people who are not accepting, who judge you, etc. There are certainly a lot of people like that out there, but I’d recommend trying to surround yourself with people who love and accept you for “you”. I know that sounds cheesy and cliche, but Jesus talks about this in John 13:34-35 “ A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
I’m not trying to imply the people you’ve been interacting with aren’t “real” Christians (I think that sort of accusation is unhelpful), but one of the true marks of a Christian in my book is how people treat one another. To me, there should be a level of humility and kindness.
James 1:26 says “If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person’s religion is worthless.”

One book I’d recommend reading is Gregory Boyle’s Tattoos on the Heart. I had to read it for a seminar at a secular university and it challenged the way I thought about Christianity at the time. It’s written by a Jesuit priest.

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Well done Eric. Thank you. Carry on that man, carry on. When do you graduate? Where are you going to work? Can you take a year off travelling? Three months across Europe? Dip in to Morocco? NOT DURING RAMADAN! Nothing like travel for broadening the mind. And getting a bit of distance. Blue water. Student railcard, backpack, hostels, wash your socks, underpants and T-shirt wearing them in the shower, credit card. Go for it.

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I enjoyed the post, though obviously it’s sad. Since it jumps around a bit so will I. I bad at remembering people I’ve only met once in forums and so I’m not certain if we’ve talked before. I think maybe but I’m not sure.

Anyways I’m a big horror fan too. It’s my absolute favorite genre of story telling regardless if it’s audio (podcasts ) , textual ( books ) or visual ( films and shows or even just images ). Are the filmography tied into working with horror as well? I like everything from black and white horror, silent , cosmic terror, horror comedy, action horror, dark urban fantasy, “torture p” and I enjoy horror that is very gory, to not gory at all, from films that takes themselves serious to one’s thst are only good because they are so outlandishly bad. Recently I’ve been watching a lot of found footage horror. “ be my cat “ is a really weird but good one. The director and writer is coming out with a new one. They are all very low budget, but pulls it off just like blair witch, though the style is way more like Creep. My favorite though is body horror.

It does suck to lose someone you love to suicide. Often though leading up to it they had more time with the people they love than those that are lost to accidents or out of the blue. A family member who we only found out about when she was 14, due to living in another country and being the daughter of someone already married that was conceived on vacation. So he never told anyone, until she was 14 when she reached out online and just happen to connect with me. She had dual citizenship and her mom died and so when she was 16 she moved to america and was living with me. She also was a horror fan. We watched so much horror together. Like 2-3 hours a day every day. But I liked it. But something happened to her and it really shook her up. She ended up taking her life about a year after it and I was the one to find her. Was very upsetting and angering. In my life several loved ones have taken their life. Who cares is someone can or can’t hear us. If it makes you feel better it makes you feel better. It’s still a connection. You’re still talking to them.

Whenever a bee stays still long enough for me to get a shot, or I come across a pretty flower that I just happened to catch a glimpse of because the wind blew it and the color popped out in the shade I almost always say “ thanks “ to it knowing they don’t actually understand it. All breakups suck. Regardless of the reason or sucks when someone does not like you back. But ultimately, it’s just free will. They are better off happy with someone else than not happy with us and everyone who gets broken up with feels like “ true love is a lie and shatters only later on to feel the same way about someone else. It’s just the human experience. Eventually though you’ll meet someone whose burned out on life and don’t have the energy to bounce and place it in another and so they just stay with you lol. Jk.

As for with your friends the best thing it to realize it’s not that important. Who cares what they believe really. Let them agree to disagree, and just focus on the things y’all enjoy. I do it all the time. If the entire friendship, or even most of it is disagreements and arguments, it will become toxic. Better to love them for who they are, and when they are ready, talk about it some more.

As for evidence, it really just depends on what is considered convincing to you. Nothing in science convinced me there is a god. I don’t even think we were made on purpose, or anything. I think El did something way before anything was here. I don’t know what it is. It’s not important to me. It’s not what encouraged my faith. Science plays no role in my faith. But these are the things that encouraged me.

  1. The Bible is written so wonderfully. The hyperbolic, the myths, the hyperlinks, the tropes and patterns. It’s my favorite book to study. I love listening to theologians discuss parts of it going so far beyond plain texts. The relationship of formless void of dark deep waters of chaos to the flood, to the bitter water, to the Egyptian drownings and to baptism and finally to the verses in revelation about no sea is such a fantastic study to me. It’s not a book so easy that kids can get it. It’s meditation literature that needs to be read again and again.

  2. The body of Christ. The local congregations im in, the disciples I meet online and so on. Obviously some people are not my of tea, but overall, the body of Christ is great. My best friends are all from local churches. Being in fellowship with our brothers and sisters of the faith who are our friends is very beneficial. Seeing the power of the story work in their lives.

Anyways I think it’s long enough .I’ll pop back in later probably.

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A lot to unpack here. I second the idea of counseling, as sometimes talking to someone with skin on makes a difference. I would also broaden my base of friends to include those who will accept you for who you are, and not expect you to conform to their idea of what you should be. There are Christian groups that do a better job of that than others. Losing someone to suicide is a traumatic experience, so give yourself some grace. I don’t think we can communicate with the dead, but feel we will see them someday ,and until that time, we can honor and carry a bit of that person with us in our daily lives.

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I like the way Phil put that, and I’ve always thought to myself that even if we can’t directly speak with departed ones, a bit of their spirit lives on in those they loved and who loved them. I feel my dad’s spirit living on in me, and I know that honors him and I would find it comforting as a departed one to know people remember me (the good parts) in those ways too as we look forward to all coming together again in Christ.

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I did not grow up in a Christian household nor one with any other theistic religion. Both parents being psychology majors, psychology was the closest thing to a religion in which I was raised. Psychology was the basis of the morality I constructed and science was the primary source of truth for me. When I asked my father about God, his reply was that He didn’t know. I became determined to find out what this God stuff was all about for myself. Years later he explained that the only possible God was one that had nothing to do with living our lives so He didn’t see how it mattered if God existed or not. But by then I had my own reasons to believe.

I am Christian now but my reasons for believing are not the usual ones. And I have heard stories of those losing their faith as you have, then finding new reasons to believe. This suggests that what is happening is that the reasons you had for believing don’t work anymore and perhaps you will find new reasons to believe. If not, I don’t think it is the end of the world. Christianity works for me but atheism seems like a rational option also. But if you choose atheism, don’t be too surprised if your children choose differently.

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Sounds like you had it rough. Keep searching and seeking.

Why would you ask for evidence outside the Bible? It consists of individual works, mostly written in the first century by Christians that were later put together into a single canon. It shows you don’t know what you are saying or asking for. Who would be a better source of information about Jesus, those who followed him and who knew his disciples or outsiders who didn’t care about him? Would you ask a scientists to give you evidence a scientific claim is true from outside science?

Jesus: Paul gives us autobiographical testimony of his own conversion and the appearance of Jesus to him (Gal 1, Cor 15). He was a Pharisee and persecuted the faith at first until he had a change of heart (possibly on the road to Damascus if we allow Acts a bit of supplementing). Paul also provides contemporary-primary data on appearances of the risen Jesus to other followers (1 Cor 15:3-8). Paul met with Peter had first-hand experiences with those who he and others tell us Jesus is said to have appeared to. We cannot say, on historical grounds that it is proven that Jesus rose from the dead but Paul provides extremely good evidence that many original followers of Jesus believe he appeared to them. On historical grounds, Paul’s evidence for resurrection appearances to Jesus’s followers is stronger than the gospel evidence because it predates the first one by 20 years (Mark ca. 70 CE), those works are anonymous and Paul has known lines of transmission (he met with Peter and other apostles) based on his own autobiographical testimony. So while we do not have any writings from Jesus and most likely none from his original apostles, we do have firsthand information about the earliest Church’s belief in the resurrection of Jesus. The alternative is to call Paul a liar but the motivation for such is lacking.

We know many Jesus’s earliest followers thought he rose from the dead at the minimum. You can suppose they were mistaken. Nothing more can be said. It’s also the entire life, the entire incarnation of Jesus that is immensely important. Putting all your eggs in one Pauline hyperbole is not wise.

There is no proving God but cakes don’t bake themselves. It’s certainly not unreasonable to believe in God and we can adduce solid reasons for doing so. For most of us it’s personal experience and forgiveness while learning/reading the Gospel. God wants to heal but he also is not a cosmic vending machine.

Vinnie

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I was asking for evidence of the resurrection outside of the Bible because I think to use the Bible to prove the Bible is the circular argument fallacy and if it’s based off of a logical fallacy that it’s not a good argument imo

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And if the resurrected Jesus was not a reanimated corpse but instead a life giving spirit in a spiritual body as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15, then…

  1. Is it reasonable to expect objective evidence?
  2. How does this detract from the gospel of salvation by the grace of God?
  3. Is this a worse fit with life as we experience it or a better fit?
  4. Does Christianity have to be a magical fantasy to be worthwhile?
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Do you want to be a Christian? I get the feeling that you sincerely do. Faith is a journey, and the way can be dark and the going rough in places. Others have felt the doubts you are facing. It even has a name: “The Dark Night of the Soul.” So try to carry on, if possible.

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I genuinely want to be a Christian again because I would do anything to see my loved ones again. I said that multiple times to Carly at her grave venting to her. On a sidenote, I love your username and your profile picture. I absolutely love beagles and I have a beagle myself.

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Thanks! Stay on your path to faith. And don’t assume heaven is just for Christians.

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Going off of what Beagle said you may find it interesting to look into the wider ranges of interpretation on heaven and hell. What are they and ect… you’ve probably been mostly taught that only Christians go to heaven, that those who don’t profess faith go to hell and that’s where they are tortured and in torment forever and ever and ever.

Three common approaches to all of this are

  1. Eternal conscious Torment. ( alive forever in pain I’m hell )

  2. Conditional Immortality, also known as annihilationism. That’s where bad people die and remain dead forever. Only those found in favor of God receive eternal life. Hell is the lake of fire known as the second death. So the evil is not kept alive and tortured, it dies and only good remains.

  3. Universalism, the symbolism of hell that actually just means death, is played out further and death is symbolism for old ways dying and new ways comings. Everyone and everything is saved. All of creation cries out and is restored including even the worst people. They are brought into repentance though love the entire community, including their victims, are healed of pain and hurt and offer love and forgiveness. Some universalist believes Satan himself will be eventually saved and some don’t. I don’t really know much about universalism. Others here do though.

The last two have legs to stand on. The first one, not so much. Then there is the question of what exactly is restored creation. Are we in heaven? Does heaven overlap with earth? Is it already here? Are we still waiting? I have no opinion on it worth sharing. I have came to a Y where I don’t know how to make consistency work. I have mostly put it all on the back burner.

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Then there are sort of 1b options like “eternal complete separation from God, not necessarily with imposed punishments beyond that” which is more what I would tend towards, but not with high confidence.

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I guess I’ll chime in with a 1c option of eternal diminishing conscious torment not as something done to us but something that we do to ourselves by our own self destructive habits (sin). Heaven and hell are not a matter of punishment or just deserts with a get out of jail free card from Christianity, but a choice we have for dealing with sin – we can accept God’s help in removing our sins or let them devour us from within. Some of us prefer to take seriously what Jesus says in Matthew 25:46 and Luke 16:19-31.

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It’s called be dead xd. Body and soul destroyed.

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I don’t believe that anybody will be forced into heaven. I’ve known some people who wouldn’t want to go there! They will be quite happy being eternally separated from God. And while Jesus is the only way to the Father, he is still able to save people who do not know him.

[EDIT: Fixed my last sentence]

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It sounds like you have gone through a lot of hard stuff. The experiences we go through make us the people we are and give us common ground to empathize with others, so in some sense, nothing is a wasted, but I hear your frustration at feeling like maybe you have invested a lot of time and effort into something that is not paying out for you in the long run. That is a hard place to be.

I don’t think faith is a conclusion one comes to, so I don’t think good arguments or good evidence produce faith. I also don’t think faith is mostly about what you rationally assent to being true. I think faith is a knowledge of God that comes from an encounter with God and firsthand experience with his love and his grace. You probably aren’t going to find that in a YouTube video or internet forum or a book on the historical evidence for Jesus. Plus, even if someone could present incontrovertible evidence that Jesus died and rose again, it would not “prove” that Jesus’ death and resurrection takes away your sin, reconciles you to God, and gives you access to eternal life. Those are all faith claims independent of the historical claim about Jesus’ dying and rising again.

I think if you announce to your friends and family “I am an atheist now,” what many of them will probably hear is an invitation to try to argue with you and convince you that you’re wrong. If that is what you are looking for, fine, but if you are really looking for emotional support, love, and acceptance, then maybe a better approach would be to straight out tell them you are struggling with holding on to your old beliefs and you are sad and frustrated and angry and need support. When people hear arguments, they usually respond with arguments but when people hear feelings they respond with empathy (hopefully, if they are decent human beings.).

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It’s hard to let go of the idea that God ought to be Santa’s big brother looking after us and fulfils our wishes upon prayer and that he promises us a place in a Cockaigne where we live happily ever after in eternal youth. You look for evidence of the resurrection as means of reassuring you of that as to be forever self and become a good Christian if your wishes are fulfilled. I believe in God if it means he brings me back together with my loved ones. Why would I believe in a God that does not deliver Cockaigne?

You can also read the resurrection of Christ in a different way as in following his crucifixion he is coming alive inside us. It might give you a wider understanding of life than just your physical existence. Life is the ability to move energy and matter at will. We can do that via our own agency but we can also execute the will of others. So in “Thy will be done” if we do not just say that as empty words but do that the origin of that will is exercising agency through us.
Now when you think of the time you spent at Carly’s grave talking to yourself like an idiot it would have only appeared like that to a person who does not understand the “self”. You clearly carry a part of Carly inside you and you were drawn to the place were Carly’s mortal remains were put to rest because it helped yourself to be closer to Carly’s self and project it outside of you. You may find the same thing if you go to places you shared with Carly that trigger memories that allow you to project Carly’s “self” outside of you. It is emotionally difficult and I hope you can identify someone who picks you up inbetween that can give you a big hug, as you seem to have found that going for the bottle does not help.

Unfortunately we are not always given the opportunity to help those who feel that longing to part from our material world far too early, but instead of going fully selfish and becoming an agent to those who deny God’s existence and exploit this selfishness you might find a better way. The thing is that you have to consciously open up your heart to allow Jesus to live in there. To live forever is the art to learn to live in Jesus heart. It begins by letting him live in yours. Carly wouldn’t mind as you will find that once you conciously open that door - there is space for many and even if some leave inbetween, they will always come back.

If you love God only on your terms and that he has to prove something to you you do not love him, but you love yourself. If one prove is found we go to look for the next one. It is one of the problems we face in human relationships as well, that we love someone for the sake of our own benefit - and that is not love as Jesus told and showed us.

So if you want to be an A-something become an Asantaist as Atheists are actually Santaists believing that if God - he would have to be like Santa

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Any God worth His salt will fix that.