I hate that I have become a misotheist

Faith & Science Conversation
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A rare condition, I’m aware. But I still accept the existence of God on an intellectual level. I have been studying theology for over Twenty years. And throughout that time, the only thing I could never completely reconcile with the God of the Bible and C.S Lewis’ modern omnibenevolent god is the problem of suffering in infants and young children. I accept adult suffering, at a time when actually knowing the difference between good and evil exists. I accept reaping what one sows. I accept all the horrible choices one can make to ruin the lives of others. Even that point was very hard to reach. And incredibly taxing on the mind. But I did it.

I cannot, however accept cancer in babies. Birth defects. Infant suffering. And over the years, and through personal and impersonal experience over these last Ten years especially, I have developed a growing resentment toward God. Even a hatred, at my worst times. I find myself delving into very dark places of thought. Actually hoping Jesus’ suffering was bad enough to make up for what I see in the world. Thinking it is good and fitting that He felt such pain and misery before the end. Actually hoping God’s plan fails so He can spend eternity alone and have His Heaven all to Himself. I call Him Monster now. I tell Him I no longer love Him. And I don’t. I no longer pray. I now believe it is a waste of time.

But this is not sustainable. It is painful. It is even dangerous for my existence. Nihilism was always the only alternative to faith in God for my mind. I can reason nothing else. And while, as I said, I still believe on an intellectual level that He exists, I am unable to pretend I don’t feel the way I do anymore. I tried just ignoring it for a long while. Hand waving it away. I can’t anymore.

Job was especially eye-opening for me. I was unable to come to any of the conclusions other believers seem to when they read that book. I have always been horrified by Job. Two cosmic monsters playing a game of chess with a man’s life. Behaving as if his very children were replaceable. Tormenting the man for a mere bet! …Monster.

The fact that God kills more than He has ever helped, that He takes no pains in ordering the deaths of whomever He wishes. As if they are so inconsequential. Especially children. That He can watch all the horrors unfold upon innocent children all day long, every day, and do nothing… Monster.

His exploits in the Bible read like His mind is barely above the average savage of the day…Monster.

The fact He literally states we are not to complain because we are just clay and He will mould us as He pleases… Sometimes with no arms or legs! Trapping the innocent soul of a new-born in a broken, flesh cocoon. Original sin is not a satisfactory excuse for this. An example would be when I read about the Thalidomide baby scandal… I howled. I actually howled and collapsed at the smiling face I saw looking back at me in the images, a face attached to a body with no arms or legs. Having no idea it is not normal, having no idea what is in store for them. The pain. The misery. Just a happy, beautiful little baby boy, big smiles, thinking everything is just swell! That permanently took a part of me away. I know that case was because of man’s sin. But God could have prevented that in the womb, at no cost to Himself, and no one would have been the wiser as to His involvement. He could have kept His precious secret. And my love. MONSTER!

NOTHING is spared mankind. There is no mercy afforded us in this life.

I used to always give Jesus the benefit of the doubt. But I feel even He is a jerk. Incredibly dismissive and unrelatable. Like His father. How can I love someone I cannot understand. When I look upon their deeds and cannot fathom why they make the choices they do. Why they seem so perfectly unmoved by the pain and suffering here as to do nothing. Ever. No matter what.

God’s mind is not like ours… Yes. I believe this. And I am unable to love Him because He is so very alien and monstrous to me.

I can only rely on my understanding. And I am unable to understand God’s ways or rationale. Perhaps this will help me on judgement day. I am not turning from Him in order to sin. To be free to do as I please. No, this is purely emotional.

I realize this is incredibly blasphemous and difficult to read. I hate that I feel this way. I really do! I hope you can believe me. And if anyone can help me, in any way. I am open to that. That is why I have posted here. I cannot keep it to myself any longer. I need help. I need to try. I truly am scared for my soul. And my mind… Unfortunately my therapist is completely out of his depth with this one…

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I am at times close to what you describe. I suppose what keeps me sane is focusing on Jesus being with us in the hard times, and not blaming the hard things in life on God, but rather accepting them as a part of the natural order of the universe that could be no other way. Mutations happen and cancer arises due to the physical properties of DNA. Thalidomide problems happened the same way intersecting with our ignorance. It does leave the question of why did God not intervene, but miracles are few and far between.

In any case, we need to pray for one another, as we sometimes stare into the abyss.

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Not blasphemous; honest. Thank you for the courage to open your heart so deeply. I too hope you find a way forward, but even more I hope you find this a safe haven while you wrestle with the kind of questions that many people face. You are not alone.

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Thank you for your understanding.

jpm, I have only read about miracles in the Bible, I’m afraid. God has always been an anchor for me, keeping me from falling into that very abyss. To be opposed to Him, to feel the way I do about Him. I’m really not okay with it. It is very distressing. Unfortunately, as I said, my therapist is not equipped to deal with this particular issue. My local pastor? He is busy singing “Oh death, where is thou sting?” and simply cannot help me… He doesn’t seem to realize it is still as toxic as ever and all around us.

I’m really trying to understand God’s way of thinking. How He sees us. I am stuck viewing babies as a father. A Human father… I should say. Their Heavenly father doesn’t seem to be very moved. I have considered the way they look. Is it a cute factor that is affecting the way I see babies? Is it chemical and irrational? Are they truly innocent? Or do I just see them that way? You see the problem, yes? I am having to try and view Human babies the way I would view a baby mouse just to try and understand God’s indifference to them. And yet, I could not sit and watch a baby mouse drown. Are Humans too soft today? It seems the people in the Bible were pretty hard of heart and didn’t see things the way we do… Although David would be an exception. The way he grieved over his son… Whom God just let die. How in character, I suppose. You can see my bitterness here… I hate it.

You state the Universe could be no other way. How so? And accept that cancer and deformity “just is”. I feel I have to point out that these things CAN be avoided and are even regularly fought against and even healed by modern medicine. It would seem that Humanity is doing a better job than God in this regard, despite Him being the designer of the system.

Peterkp, I am actually terrified of the way I feel. It makes me feel guilty. Especially because there was a time when turning to God had a remarkable affect on my life and my brain itself. Changing me in ways no tablet ever could. I wonder what God would do to me if I die with such an attitude now? Would He explain, understand? The Bible only tells me my fate will be the Lake of Fire if I am unable to change. It is so very black and white.

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I wish you the best in your search for answers, but if anything, just note that God isn’t absent from the problem of suffering. When Jesus walked the Earth, he saw and even experienced much of the pain that we face even today.

Also, for many parts of the Bible (such as God sending a flood to destroy the Earth), poetry seems to be a primary means of transporting information. Did God actually kill everything on the surface with a flood? No. However, we have faced extinctions in the past.

One thing that I’ve come to realize while talking on this forum is that we shouldn’t necessarily treat things like death or disease as a sort of punishment for our sins. Rather, in order to have true free will (meaning we aren’t just an extension of God because he controls every action of ours), there needs to be an inherent amount of randomness and entropy (chaos) in life. God doesn’t want to cause suffering in His creatures, but sometimes death is just a necessary component of life. If no one ever died, we would all suffer as resources quickly ran out. If we never faced disease, what incentive do we have to ever adapt or get better, or to learn? It is a brutal world, but what we face here is temporary.

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I hope you don’t think that everyone who gets cancer as an adult is reaping what they sow.

Other than that, I’m not sure I can help while staying within forum guidelines.

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I think one important thing to keep in mind is that diseases like cancer shouldn’t be treated like divine punishment, but just as random occurrences as a result of a universe with free will.

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If we consider the Bible, the deepest picture of how we can relate to God is surely the Psalms - Israel’s official worship resource, so to speak. And what the Psalms tell us clearly is that we can safely say anything to God. Worship is not just joy and perfect faith. It’s also raging anger (Ps 137). It’s admitting that your faith is in tatters (Ps 73). It’s shouting at God because he has abandoned me (Ps 22). One thing God will never judge me for is being honest about my feelings. I am convinced of that.

You described a church pastor who doesn’t understand where you are at. I couldn’t tell if that was your impression or if the pastor had actually said that. Either way, I encourage you to find a face to face mentor who can be a safe sounding board for you. Online support can help, but only partially.

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To me having given the ability for Us to Pray is the Proof that “Our Father” exists. When We use the ability to pray We show 'Our Father " that We Believe the Request is Heard. Usually What We Pray for doesn’t happen just like Children don’t get what We want and We stop Believing and Praying. We as Children of Our Flesh Parents stop crying and recover and learn to be happy with what They do Give Us Children from Their Love and care.

This is the Life Of Jesus as a Child of His and now “Our Father” being Born Again when Baptized like Him. Mathew 27:46 and Psalm 22 is When We feel Forsaken just like Our Prayer is not answered and We Carry On and continue to Believe in “Our Holy Father’s Love” like Children in a Family.

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First welcome aboard but I say that as a non Christian in good standing on a Christian forums. I was an agnostic when I assumed I was an atheist and I still am now that I recognize God in my life. I’m have no resentment toward God because I don’t believe on the basis of the Bible nor on any other authority; so I don’t feel entitled to a certain standard of treatment by God. My ideas about it would seem whack to you because they do not align with Christian doctrine though I do feel in sync with its mythos.

I think you are assuming that God is intricately aware of every aspect of every life and so should recognize the injustice of infant cancer but I don’t think He is anything like us. Nor do I think his powers extend to fine tuning every possible outcome to make it more just and loving. I think free will means granting existence so we can face all the risks and benefits for ourselves.

Since I think God makes us all from himself (what else could He have used?) I believe He is intimately aware of all we go through, celebrating the heights we reach but also coming with us on our lows. I don’t think of God as a genie who can turn out any result whatsoever as effortlessly as any other. I believe God actually becomes us and then steps back so that there can be true others in His creation. Nothing can happen to us which doesn’t also befall Him, sick babies included. Lacking genie powers God is finding his way through His creation from within us all. Life is as miraculous as it is improbable. His role is to become us all and then work out the rough spots with us. I think the world is much more amazing than it is tragic. To help God we must love others as we do Him. That way we all have a chance.

From my perspective we are an integral piece of the living world. Of course we live and we die just like all the rest of nature. So we are not spared death in all the ways that can come to us but neither are we prevented from partaking in all the wonders and opportunities which the world affords. That strikes me as fair.

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No, I’m sorry, that was dismissive. Smokers, yes, bad lifestyles, yes. The chaos effect of someone pouring PFAS on a burning car only to have it end up in the body of someone else half a world away, yes. And those responsible for giving it to others must surely pay.

All adults sin and the wages of sin is death, so I can accept all adult death based upon that. I have never met an adult that had never sinned. I cannot accept that in babies however. No baby has ever sinned.

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I would kinda push back at this. I think for the most part of human history we have treated our death as supposedly more important than that of animals. Yet, from an Evolutionary Creationist perspective, we don’t really differ from animals. I forgot from whom I heard it from on this forum, but someone provided the great wisdom that death isn’t necessarily punishment but just a product of a free will universe; death is a part of the cycle of life. Animals didn’t sin to deserve death, but humans are lucky enough that the worst punishment we can face in our mortal lives (despite knowing full well the weight of our sins) is just death.

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Chimes right in with psalms recorded in the Bible!

If God is not good, then there would be nothing (of deity anyway) worthy of our worship. Better to not believe in any Deity at all than to worship an evil god.

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Actually, one of the hurdles to keeping belief I had (and it is still an interesting idea) is that the Psalms were the most honest parts of the Bible. That everything else is simply someone inserting myth into real events and places. But this God not answering or helping, simply showed the average person who didn’t add these mythical additions was simply experiencing the reality of this God being mythical. Hence crying out to no response.

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One of the reasons I chose to focus on the God of the Bible (apart from everything else falling apart under scrutiny far easier), was that the Christian God is unique in that on the cross, He actually took responsibility for what He had done, for making Humans in the first place. No other god does this. Only a god that could take responsibility would be worth my affection. I would have given up on the Bible LONG ago were this not the case.

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Thank you for your response. Yes, I’m afraid anything unbiblical and not based in Christianity would be useless to me. For me, it can only be either the Bible or Nihilistic atheism.

Without God, the problem of suffering is easy to understand, and Richard Dawkins captured it the best by far when he said “In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.”

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It’s funny, I still get the urge to pray. To talk to God. I simply resist it now. I have caught myself looking up at the night sky and almost saying something, then I just walk away.

My last Two prayers were begging for it all to be taken away. And simply telling God this is it, I do not understand you. Have mercy on me. You’ve lost me.

One response to your parents-children analogy is that parents do anything they can for their children, if they are good parents. Even the bad ones do SOMETHING. My Human father hates me and has cut me off. Yet he still spoke to me. He was once still present, for better or worse.

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You don’t believe that either in the distant past, before Humanity had spread across the face of the Earth, a great calamity nearly did us in? Or at least that a local calamity destroyed a wicked part of Humanity?

Sorry mods, this is off-topic. And a can of worms I’m interested in, just not in this post. Also, if you could join all my replies into one, I don’t know how to add each quote into the same post.

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I accept that we are no better off than the animals, the Bible actually states this. Ecclesiastes 3:19

One of my favourite books of the Bible.

I fully consider human death to be more of a tragedy than animal death, however. I view animals as merely instinct driven and without anything deeper to their minds. A more advanced type of grass, if you will. They can figure out their environment, but never ask or care why anything is so. This is why I can kill and eat them without any moral issue. That and even without God in the picture, I evolved to be the top predator of the planet, and predation is as natural as it gets.

I would debate that the worst we can suffer is death on this Earth. There have been times when I considered the suffering I was going through to be worse than death. I can remember waking up after being under general anaesthesia and balling my eyes out, much to the surprise of the doctors. I wanted to “go back” to the weightless nothing. Consciousness was far too heavy a burden at that time. If that is death, then I can’t complain.

The true tragedy of death for me became apparent once I became a father. I justified my having children in light of my faith in God. I would NEVER procreate in an atheistic worldview. I had children so that they could experience and enjoy life and have the chance to be with God forever. Were they merely to grow and become, simply to die with no hope for anything more, then creating them is an evil I cannot justify. Perhaps one of the greatest evils I can conceive. Continuing this charade if there is no god is abhorrent to me. Anyway, the tragedy became fully apparent when I laid my eyes on them for the first time.

My third and final child, my beautiful little girl. Had complications during delivery. I watched her little, grey body be rushed over to a table where the filth of birth could be sucked from her lungs so she could breathe. I held a mask to her face at one point while the nurse worked on her. This traumatized me. Despite it not being rare that other parents go through far worse. If I had no modern medicine to aid her, she would be dead now. God did nothing in this case. The nurses kept my daughter alive.

Recently there was a scandal at my local hospital. A nurse actually internally decapitated a new-born during delivery. The stupid woman tried to force this infant from the birth canal, only to then try and shove the infant back in to prepare for a c-section. The baby, instead of feeling the warmth of her mother, the love, the connection she must surely have felt during the Nine months in the womb was left brain dead. She should have been being held by her mother’s warm embrace. I am sure she leapt for joy in the womb at the hearing of certain voices just as Jesus did. The mother wanders around town now, a hollow soul. And nothing anyone could say can help her.

Perhaps the messiah should have been born a brain-damaged, limbless flesh-cocoon to truly experience being human? Carried everywhere to spout His message of God’s love with a nice speech impediment to boot? Has He truly experienced what it is like to be one of us? Or was His connection to God a divine buffer from the true horror?

Once again, I apologise for any offense my language may cause. I’m terrified I was even able to produce such a paragraph as the last.

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Our view of life is subjective and very limited. When we feel that God should act as I would act, we try to force God into obeying our will.

Yes, God is beyond everything we can understand and in that sense, alien to us. Some of the things He allows may seem monstrous. Yet, in Jesus we can see a side of God that speaks the language of humans - God taking part in the misery of the human life and giving a way to something better.

God does not seem to think about death in the way humans think. Maybe it has something to do with the time perspective. Our short life is all we see while God sees the eternity.
Without death, there would be no opportunity for new life, no new babies, or the births would lead to great suffering because the space and resources are limited.

We are suffering partly because our bodies have mechanisms that warn about the destruction or potential destruction of our biological body. The warning system is basically good but can cause great pain and suffering.

One of the most difficult points in life as a father is to watch how my child suffers and not be able to help. It is natural that during those times, there is anxious praying and questions about why the suffering does not stop although God could stop it immediately.

I have no good answers but I believe that such suffering happens because God allows the world to run as it does, not because God would want the suffering of innocent children.

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