Maybe it depends on what faith is built upon. When apologetics are used as proof, then any question could potentially challenge faith. Though maybe not of the “may I have the ketchup” sort. However, when people make declarations of God’s goodness because of one thing He’s done for them (and I’m not saying He hasn’t), I sometimes think, “What about those who have no food to even put ketchup on because of war and famine?” (Sorry if the ketchup thing is going too far.) What is proof to us may not be proof for anyone else.
In the recent podcast featuring Sy Garte, he addresses this very well. (Paulogia has also had Sy Garte on his YouTube channel) I agree with what Mr. Garte says: faith is the work of the Holy Spirit. As Paul Ens says at the 11 minute range of this video, he clearly states that the claim made is “plausible.” When we want proof, apologetics can allow us to fill in the lacks of evidence with what we want the evidence to say. Or we can be challenged by the questions. However, this brings us back to what is actually in Scripture, and where I think Mr. Garte hits the nail on the head, is that faith is Grace from God, an act of the Holy Spirit. What he and Paul Ens both point out is what evidence actually can reveal, and what is reasonable to believe. The power of apologetics is that there are reasons to believe, and what Scripture shows is that faith is preeminently the Holy Spirit and the grace of God.
Here’s the gist of what Paul argues for and against:
Paul holds that, while The Burial was plausible, he is convinced that it wasn’t likely.
Paul mentions that we don’t know where the tomb of Christ is, leading him to believe that he, like most other victims of crucifixion, was either left to rot or cast into an unmarked grave.
He also states that Joseph of Arimathea was a literary invention crafted to substantiate The Bodily Resurrection that developed 30 years later.
Paul is unconvinced that it was The Sanhedrin’s job to take down the bodies after executions, because Joseph had to argue with his higher-ups in order to remove Jesus.
Related to the point above, Paul finds it highly unlikely that the Romans would care about Jewish sensibilities and would neither be strong-armed nor indulgent. For example, Dr. Ehrman recalls when Pilate disguised soldiers as common folk in order to infiltrate an indignant crowd and beat the congregation into submission.
Paul mentions that Josephus never specified that the Jews he got taken down from their crucifixes were hung there by Romans, implying that fellow Jews could make exceptions for such high-ranking kin, and in this instance, he was writing about an event some 30-40 years after The Crucifixion.
That’s what stood out to me, but I would go and watch the video if you get the chance, because knowing me, I must have missed something!
A good book that refutes the conspiracy theory is Born Again by Charles Colson of Watergate infamy and a key player in the scandal. He says that if our Lord’s resurrection was a conspiracy to fool the masses, Christianity wouldn’t have happened. The few Watergate conspirators who were among the most powerful men in Washington couldn’t even hold that tiny conspiracy together, let alone if a large number had been involved in trying to perpetuate the plot.
I really need to read that book. What you’ve just stated here is both (a) an important argument for the Resurrection and (b) an important argument against anti-vaxxers, covid deniers, and other conspiracy theorists.
I’m afraid for a committed conspiracist it would not matter, sadly. For someone more on the fence and willing to listen, it could be persuasive. Someone who used to be a dear friend totally went off the rails as a 9/11 truther, hoaxist, you name it. There is no talking to her with reasonable arguments and epistemology.
I know exactly what you mean. I have good friends myself who have gone down that route.
Having said that it is worth calling attention to these things, especially in public or semi-public forums such as Facebook, because you will be addressing people who are willing to listen. I’ve found that for every friend who complains that I keep going on and on about the same thing, there are several others who tell me that I need to keep doing so because they find it valuable.
Thanks! I watched a third of it probably so I definitely missed a bunch. If there is a source that addresses honestly what the evidence shows concerning the resurrection, I’d really like to read it! I’ve just read/heard/watched so many things that draw conclusions that seem insufficient.
The friend I mentioned has been kicked off of Facebook at least twice, so a least that avenue for the propagnda has been squelched. I still get emails that go directly to my gmail spam folder, and I look occasionally. The other week I looked and there was something about people at her church being angry with her – understandably, since she is a COVID denier, antivaxxer and antimasker. I never follow any links, of course, many of which are bitchute URLs.
(Believing in conspiracy theories is not the same thing as being part of a conspiracy, of course, so that does not detract from the argument against conspiracy theories, in spite of their crazy proliferation,)
Klax
(The only thing that matters is faith expressed in love.)
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Faith being what? Belief that Jesus was God incarnate? I want that to be true. Is that want the work of the Holy Spirit? Despite the chaotic, decades late gospels? Something at least extremely culturally significant happened in Jerusalem to start the Church which Paul persecuted - according to decades later Acts - and joined as his seven earliest letters testify.
Hmmm an example would be around the 30 minute mark when Paulogia addresses Mike Winger’s discussion about nails being found in tombs. Therefore, crucified victims were put in tombs. So it’s not impossible that Jesus was put in a tomb. But that information could be read as “Jesus was definitely put in a tomb.” This is a fine detail, although the nails don’t seem to be the proper kind for crucifixions since they would likely have had to be larger, but I’d appreciate clarity from apologists and teachers that such information is painting a picture of what was happening at that time. From what I’ve watched of Mike Winger, and I haven’t watched videos from the other two channels, is that he is usually clear about his sources. But generally, it’s important to me that people who are being listened to communicate their goals and resources clearly. I hope that helps
Do you think that’s a good argument though? You don’t exactly need a lot of people to be in on some conspiracy, especially if you are Paul writing to people hundreds or thousands of miles away from the original events. And then make some vague references to some 500 people who saw this too (who? can we actually go check that claim? not with the details he gives in Scripture at least). You can just have a few people who are genuinely convinced of the thing they saw.
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Klax
(The only thing that matters is faith expressed in love.)
29
Playing… Devil’s advocate. If He were just human, the initial conspiracy would have been by the programmed disciples. From a child Jesus was a true, broad and deep genius. And in every sense, He got it from His mother. Traumatized by… rape. By a Roman officer. The novel writes itself doesn’t it? He saw Himself as Messiah. As virgin born by the Spirit. Joseph believed it too. For multiple good reasons. Dreams. Love. Altered states, enhanced expectation, suggestibility - self hypnosis. All deeply Freudian and Jungian. Jesus believed everything He said. And more. Best case, in all goodwill. So did the disciples. We can make it all work where there is psychological or conspiratorial possibility. For the good. Only the medically, scientifically, conspiratorially impossible (healing lepers etc, raising Jairus’ daughter, Lazarus, isn’t) has to be added as myth. Even then, a group can brainwash itself to believe anything. He had to have planned His (fake?) death and disappearance with at least one other. For He was at heart a humanist realist rational… Messiah. He would have converted Derren Brown.
Whatever the gospel writers wrote 40 years on is irrelevant. The Church was up and running within weeks and spread west and east, north and south like wildfire among Jewish merchants. Saul persecuted a thriving communist minority that lived the good news. That broke him. He reconstructed as Paul, an utterly devout follower of their Jesus.
One doesn’t have to impute madness and/or badness to anyone. Just the edge of both…
Given my vast experience running conspiracies, all I have is imagination and conjecture. You?
On the other hand, today we have people whom we know or we have their firsthand testimony who have claimed, many compellingly, to have had some kind of experience with our Risen Lord.
I think the personal experience of many Christians (myself included) is important but for me, sometimes this sounds like the beginning of an MLM pitch.
Definitely some TV healer/evangelists or church growth programs.
Sometimes those personal experiences are not ‘just subjective’ (or at least open to that accusation) but actually have objective content, and some even have empirical content that can be communicated compellingly.
I don’t know on what he bases this argument of but I find the alternative rather unlikely. If the romans didn’t worry about the local population, Pontius Pilate wouldn’t have executed Jesus in the first place since he hadn’t committed a crime under roman law. He wouldn’t have freed Barabbas. And more importantly (since their are other references to the kings of Israel in that time) their wouldn’t have been King Herod. The romans had tendency local religions that they often viewed as supporting a local God.
Assuming the premises of the bible are true, that it happened as it did is expected especially since they didn’t view Jesus as a criminal. Its just good population controle.
The premise can be challenged and in fairness we don’t have cross references supporting what is said in the bible, but he needs to provide evidence to why the reasoning is wrong.
