I Am Not Trapped In A Facility Full Of Apologists! You Are Trapped In Here With Me!

Thanks! I watched a third of it probably so I definitely missed a bunch. If there is a source that addresses honestly what the evidence shows concerning the resurrection, I’d really like to read it! I’ve just read/heard/watched so many things that draw conclusions that seem insufficient.

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The friend I mentioned has been kicked off of Facebook at least twice, so a least that avenue for the propagnda has been squelched. I still get emails that go directly to my gmail spam folder, and I look occasionally. The other week I looked and there was something about people at her church being angry with her – understandably, since she is a COVID denier, antivaxxer and antimasker. I never follow any links, of course, many of which are bitchute URLs. :roll_eyes:

(Believing in conspiracy theories is not the same thing as being part of a conspiracy, of course, so that does not detract from the argument against conspiracy theories, in spite of their crazy proliferation,)

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No problem! Could you give an example?

Faith being what? Belief that Jesus was God incarnate? I want that to be true. Is that want the work of the Holy Spirit? Despite the chaotic, decades late gospels? Something at least extremely culturally significant happened in Jerusalem to start the Church which Paul persecuted - according to decades later Acts - and joined as his seven earliest letters testify.

I still like Dietrich Bonhoeffer’s hermeneutic a lot.

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Good question :slight_smile:

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Hmmm an example would be around the 30 minute mark when Paulogia addresses Mike Winger’s discussion about nails being found in tombs. Therefore, crucified victims were put in tombs. So it’s not impossible that Jesus was put in a tomb. But that information could be read as “Jesus was definitely put in a tomb.” This is a fine detail, although the nails don’t seem to be the proper kind for crucifixions since they would likely have had to be larger, but I’d appreciate clarity from apologists and teachers that such information is painting a picture of what was happening at that time. From what I’ve watched of Mike Winger, and I haven’t watched videos from the other two channels, is that he is usually clear about his sources. But generally, it’s important to me that people who are being listened to communicate their goals and resources clearly. I hope that helps :slight_smile:

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Do you think that’s a good argument though? You don’t exactly need a lot of people to be in on some conspiracy, especially if you are Paul writing to people hundreds or thousands of miles away from the original events. And then make some vague references to some 500 people who saw this too (who? can we actually go check that claim? not with the details he gives in Scripture at least). You can just have a few people who are genuinely convinced of the thing they saw.

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Playing… Devil’s advocate. If He were just human, the initial conspiracy would have been by the programmed disciples. From a child Jesus was a true, broad and deep genius. And in every sense, He got it from His mother. Traumatized by… rape. By a Roman officer. The novel writes itself doesn’t it? He saw Himself as Messiah. As virgin born by the Spirit. Joseph believed it too. For multiple good reasons. Dreams. Love. Altered states, enhanced expectation, suggestibility - self hypnosis. All deeply Freudian and Jungian. Jesus believed everything He said. And more. Best case, in all goodwill. So did the disciples. We can make it all work where there is psychological or conspiratorial possibility. For the good. Only the medically, scientifically, conspiratorially impossible (healing lepers etc, raising Jairus’ daughter, Lazarus, isn’t) has to be added as myth. Even then, a group can brainwash itself to believe anything. He had to have planned His (fake?) death and disappearance with at least one other. For He was at heart a humanist realist rational… Messiah. He would have converted Derren Brown.

Whatever the gospel writers wrote 40 years on is irrelevant. The Church was up and running within weeks and spread west and east, north and south like wildfire among Jewish merchants. Saul persecuted a thriving communist minority that lived the good news. That broke him. He reconstructed as Paul, an utterly devout follower of their Jesus.

One doesn’t have to impute madness and/or badness to anyone. Just the edge of both…

Given my vast experience running conspiracies, all I have is imagination and conjecture. You? :slightly_smiling_face:

On the other hand, today we have people whom we know or we have their firsthand testimony who have claimed, many compellingly, to have had some kind of experience with our Risen Lord.

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Lol.

I think the personal experience of many Christians (myself included) is important but for me, sometimes this sounds like the beginning of an MLM pitch.

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Definitely some TV healer/evangelists or church growth programs.
 

Sometimes those personal experiences are not ‘just subjective’ (or at least open to that accusation) but actually have objective content, and some even have empirical content that can be communicated compellingly.

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I don’t know on what he bases this argument of but I find the alternative rather unlikely. If the romans didn’t worry about the local population, Pontius Pilate wouldn’t have executed Jesus in the first place since he hadn’t committed a crime under roman law. He wouldn’t have freed Barabbas. And more importantly (since their are other references to the kings of Israel in that time) their wouldn’t have been King Herod. The romans had tendency local religions that they often viewed as supporting a local God.
Assuming the premises of the bible are true, that it happened as it did is expected especially since they didn’t view Jesus as a criminal. Its just good population controle.
The premise can be challenged and in fairness we don’t have cross references supporting what is said in the bible, but he needs to provide evidence to why the reasoning is wrong.

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