I still have yet to understand what she has against the Lutherans. If she thinks that Catholics, Orthodox, and Lutherans are damned, then she’s damned all of Christendom for most of Christian history. But she has no understanding of Christian history that took place after the Bible. It’s all just blank to her.
I think that we should certainly take the position that science does not provide us with knowledge of Gods wishes for us or this world.
Science is a tool, and the way in which we use that tool is dependant on our personal habits of interracting with others influences (who we trust/read/listen too), our knowledge, our experience, our bias, and world view.
Largely, i also agree that biblical theology has those same influences…and i do not think one can make the claim that one is different to the other in terms of innerancy because as a fallible human, no one is immune from the above mentioned dependancies.
So if the human factors in science and the bible are the same, how can a Christian such as myself place the bible above science?
Answer: there is no offering of salvation in science.
Science doesnt offer anything more than a mechanics spanner offers a mechanic. The spanner has no idea what it is going to be used for, nor does it teach the mechanic how use the spanner or fix the car said mechanic is working on.
The bible on the other hand makes certain demans of individuals wishing to be saved…those demands are quite specific.
Therefore, if one wishes to be a member of the Christian club (if you like), one has to follow its rules and be a participant.
Revelation 14:12 tells us the exact qualities of those who are saved in the end times:
“here are those who keep the commandments and have the testimony/gospel of Jesus”
The Apostle John wrote Revelation 1412 roughly 60 years after the death of Christ…a google search about the commandments phrase in this text clearly defines it as referring to the Mosaic 10 commandments, so its not possible that the new covenant has thrown out the commandments!
In terms of your friends claim about divource…the interpretation there is an intentional effort to mislead…the Matthew Chapters 5 and 19 do not say we cannot divource, the opposite is true actually and we are given a specific criteria for it…“unfaithfulness/adultery”. I would also add that violence in the home is another reason as we have other verses in the bible that tells us men should respect women.
If we link the term marriage with spirituality, then the bible is full of reasons why a women may reject a man in marriage…the very same reasons God rejects the wicked.
[1 Peter 3:7]
Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered.
[1 Timothy 3:1-7]
The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God’s church?
I think this is an illustration of how a literal reading of the bible can blind someone to the actual true meaning and intention of scripture. Your friend has hyperfocused on a phrase and not realised that the entire bible talks about our marriage to God…the classic type/antityp principle i think applies here.
The universal point is, a marriage can only be successful if it adhears to the laws, and has the testimony of the gospel of marriage. These are mirrored in the entire bible story.
When did Google get theological authority?
The Holy Spirit disagrees: He reduced everything in the books of Moses to just four admonitions (cf. Acts 15).
Acts 155But some believers from the party of the Pharisees stood up and declared, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses.” 6So the apostles and elders met to look into this matter.
7After much discussion, Peter got up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you that the Gentiles would hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8And God, who knows the heart, showed His approval by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as He did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for He cleansed their hearts by faith.
10Now then, why do you test God by placing on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear?
Now read a little further down the Chapter…
15The words of the prophets agree with this, as it is written:
16‘After this I will return and rebuild
the fallen tent of David.
Its ruins I will rebuild,
and I will restore it,
17so that the remnant of men may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
says the Lord who does these things
Now before you fall into another rabbit warren about the New Testament “Rigtheousness by grace through faith”…
Romans 4
Abraham Justified by Faith
(Genesis 15:1–7; Psalm 32:1–11; Hebrews 11:8–19)1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has discovered? 2If Abraham was indeed justified by works, he had something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”a
If you were in the habit of ensuring you cross reference your bible theology St Roymond, you can avoid making errors in straw plucking texts that dont support your claims!
Nice job of ignoring the pertinent text!
When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they declared all that God had done with them. But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses.”
. . .
Now then, why do you test God by placing on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear?
. . .
For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.
In summary:
- dissenters “Everyone must follow the law of Moses!”
- Peter: no one can bear that yoke.
- Holy Spirit: Right – just these four things, then.
The Holy Spirit flat out sets aside Moses and sets instead just four admonitions. No “cross-referencing” is necessary, but if you want some, consider that Paul wrote that he died to the law so he could live to God – that makes following the law contrary to living to God. Elsewhere he wrote that the law brings death, calling it a “ministry that brings death”. Further, he tells us that the result of the law is sin. He also agreed with the statement that “all things are lawful”, showing that the law no longer has any force.
Scripture is clear that the law was just for Israel – check out Exodus 20, where God says it is for those He brought out of Egypt; or 1 Corinthians 9, where Paul says he became “as outside the law” for those outside the law, i.e. Gentiles. In Acts 15 the Holy Spirit affirms this, leaving the Gentile believers (which includes us) outside the law.
Consider actually reading a chapter before sounding off about someone else being wrong.
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Have a blessed day Clovis. That’s what I’ll say be well and go well. Here’s my two cents. I’ve experienced the same in your face criticism and at this point in my life as far as I’m concerned that type of thinking (that fundamentals throw at you is just “Fundamentally” cognitively distorted. There was a time when I did not respond to the 6000-year Yec community and shook my head yes while my heart and head said no. That was just to keep the peace. However, it pained me because I was not being true to myself and what I believed. No more of that. I still try to maintain an atmosphere of peace with these folks but I fervently respond that their belief is not what I consider truth. I wish you the best and God loves you. BTY we humans did not walk with the dinosaurs.
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You have a lot of different questions going on here, but I think it’s interesting that you’re quite certain your friend knew things about you that she couldn’t have known.
You also wonder if her knowledge is demonic, and there seems to be some support for that idea in some of the other posts. But there’s also another way of looking at the situation you currently find yourself in.
So, from my own point of view as a practising cataphatic mystic who talks to Mother Father God every day, I don’t think it’s demonic. I stopped believing in demons and Satan and Hell a long time ago, but that’s because my own angelic guide gave me a really hard time until I gave up any notion that demons are part of God’s Creation.
Meanwhile, I believe completely in miracles and non-Materialist events and experiences, not because miracles are the opposite of science but because miracles are deeply entrenched in the scientific reality of God’s quantum universe. I couldn’t do what I do as a mystic without complete faith in the wonders of science – physics, chemistry, neuroscience.
The real issue here (from my perspective) is not that God might be talking to your friend. The real issue is that God talks to EVERYONE whether they realize it or not, but we human beings usually make an incredible mess out of these messages from God.
It’s very hard work to sort out the difference between messages from God and messages from your own selfish, narcissistic, status-addicted biological brain. Many Christians believe that all they have to do is ask in prayer for gifts of the Spirit, but I can say with certainty that prayer won’t get you very far if you really want to open your heart to God’s messages.
It’s especially difficult to discern the differences when you’re first starting out on your journey of trying to understand God’s messages. This has everything to do with neuroscience and absolutely nothing to do with demons.
It sounds to me as if your friend has fallen into the great big bear trap of believing she can have her cake and eat it too. She wants to keep what her fellow human being have told her while refusing the challenge of changing, growing, and learning what God is really saying to her. (I personally fell flat on my face more times than I can count when I smugly thought at first that I had all the answers and that God wanted me to have all the answers.)
There are a surprising number of people out there who have some latent ability to sense what’s being said to them by their own angelic guides. But they get a few crumbs (such as what your friend knew about you) and they think they’ve been chosen by God to be prophets, saviours, judges, and keepers of the Portal to God without doing the work.
When such persons don’t respect their own limits, and don’t listen to what God is actually saying, they’ll start to get feedback from God and from their angelic guides. This is the part nobody likes to hear about, though. (Think Book of Job.)
What? You mean . . . if I want to learn to hear God’s messages, I have to do it God’s way, not my way? But that’s so unfair! And I’d have to do some real spiritual work! And I’d have to be patient and humble! And I couldn’t always be right!
NOOOOOOOO! I’d much rather blame it on Satan!
- the Apostle John - A DISCIPLE OF CHRIST, wrote the book of Revelation 60 years after the crucifixion
- Revelation 14:!2
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
I don’t know why i have to keep correcting bad theology with actual bible writings…actually, i do know why…its because you apply your own reasoning to the texts you straw pluck without cross-referencing them with other scriptures to ensure your comprehension is adequate …which in this case it is seriously flawed as I have explained numerous times before and yet you keep reverting back to straw plucking anyway!
Unless one learns to truly appreciate the fact that the bible does not contradict itself one will face insurmountable conflicts in biblical theology and doctrine. That is because one has no rational answer to why one passage of scripture appears to be in contrast to another, however, there is always a reason for it…usually inadequate understanding of context and cross referencing.
Given the book of Revelation was written in the A.D 90’s, it’s the most recent eyewitness apostolic writing that we have of Christ’s ministry.
That means its authoritative correlation is extremely high. Therefore, i can be 100% certain that the correct theology is that the apostle John clearly defines two specific qualities of those who are saved at the end of time (saints)…
- they keep the commandments
- they have the gospel
There is no rebuttal to Revelation 14:12…and that’s because i can consistently prove the doctrine throughout both testaments of the Bible. I can also prove the doctrine from the old Testament Tabernacle illustration…that Christs sacrifice on the cross is THE FIRST ELEMENT IN THE TABERNACLE not the last (which i have already shown you before)so the statement on the cross “it is finished” cannot possibly refer to throwing out the law because the plan of salvation outlined by the OT Sanctuary hasn’t finished yet (because we are all still bloody-well here arent we Einstein)
Now you can continue to play games there but to do so is both ignorant of the reality of intrinsic biblical history, theology and doctrine
(FYI)
Intrinsic
adjective
belonging naturally; essential.
Exactly why, for a Christian, a natural reading of scripture is the most sensible approach to understanding God, our existence, and the future.
I think the standard God has for “our grasp of truth” is different from ours. Accurate knowledge is not a prerequisite for spiritual gifts. Neither are spiritual gifts a sign of “having correct knowledge.”
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That is an interesting statement to explore, as early Christians actually did not have that option open to them. First, the New Testament had not been written or gathered together. Second, most could not read. Third. even with the Old Testament, there were very few copies, Some perhaps in Hebrew, some in the Greek.
If effect, scripture was read and received by the bulk of the church orally and interpreted as a community, with the guidance of church elders, as I understand it.
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You continue to dodge what the Holy Spirit said plainly. Revelation is not in question here, Acts 15 is, and the declaration by the Holy Spirit that all the material of the books of Moses is reduced to four admonitions.
That’s what the text says. You don’t get to ignore it by trotting out texts that don’t even talk about it; you don’t get to ignore the Holy Spirit’s plain words by changing the subject.
This assertion makes Jesus a liar. As I noted before, Jesus fulfills ALL the Temple types, not just one that tickles your fancy: He said “It is finished”, not “it is begun”.
No, you claimed it, you didn’t show anything.
I call that blasphemy: when Jesus said “τετέλεσται”, He meant what He said: it (the work He came to do) is now and forever complete". Your claim says that Jesus didn’t finish the job; Jesus’ word says that everything in the Old Testament that pertains to atonement or propitiation or redemption was finished, was completed, was over and doen with right there on the Cross.
Yes – that’s what I’m going by, a natural reading of Acts 15, which you ignore:
When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they declared all that God had done with them. But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses.”
. . .
Now then, why do you test God by placing on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear?
. . .
For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.
What part of “No greater burden than these requirements” do you not understand?
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It’s amazing in how many cases a “natural reading of scripture” is simply wrong, because of our cultural distance. We tend to come at scripture through our cultural lenses which (in North America) are farther removed from the original context than a reader from the Middle East or Asia might have. Some of our weird and “off” practices and doctrines are a result of this lens shift. I think at the ground level, the individual Christian can encounter God through scripture appropriately as is necessary for spiritual life, but it’s the responsibility (and a greater responsibility it is) for the scholar, academic, teacher, and pastor to “get it right.” The implications are enormous.
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This. Reality doesn’t care about your belief that scripture should be so simple a child could understand it and reality doesn’t care about your spiritual feelings. Reality just cares about what’s true.
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Missionaries often find that remote communities take almost naturally to the mytho-cosmology of the OT.
Including anyone who is arguing for their interpretation! Expounding a given interpretation is effectively making one’s self a teacher, and teachers are held to higher standards according to the apostle.
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