How much science should we expect other people to understand?

Molecular biology, physiology, and paleontology to name just a few. In another thread you asked about the evolution of the femur. if you had known about Tiktaalik roseae you would have already had the answer.

https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1322559111

You have also made statements about there not being a chicken sized dinosaur with feathers, not knowing that microraptor fits all of those requirements.

https://www.google.com/search?q=microraptor

You have also mentioned how hearts evolve. A simple google search finds plenty of research on the matter:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6767493/

You didn’t know what a nested hierarchy is which is a pretty basic principle in biology. You think we can’t sequence DNA unless we know what its function is, which is completely bonkers. In fact, most of your descriptions of DNA shows a near complete lack of knowledge of how it works which is on par with most non-biologists. You claim that being warm blooded requires all of these physiological changes, yet tuna are warm blooded and they have nearly identical physiology and anatomy compared to cold blooded fish. Like I said, your knowledge of biology is on par with non-scientists, but if you want to challenge the actual science I would strongly recommend doing a bit of research instead of going off gut instinct.

I’m not a theologian. I don’t go around telling theologians they have it wrong. If I think you may have a theological point wrong I would do a lot of research before challenging it.

Not at all. I think you are a good person with good character and have an understanding of biology on par with non-scientists. You just happen to be wrong about some points because you lack the necessary background information.

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https://www.google.com/search?q=pneumatic+bones+dinosaur

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No, it isn’t. It may be basic to ToE but ToE is not the sole content of biology.

You can fire disparate fossils until you are blue in the face. They are still static. You join your own dots.

You have large dinosaurs with feathers. You have ,imcrorapters with feathers, but you have the first bird somewhere between the two. Does archaeopteryx have honeycomb Bones? I would hope so, but you are starting from him, not a microrapter (whatever that is. There are so many new creatures these days I have lost track)

You still have to teach the darn thing to fly!

There are some things that fossils cannot answer.

Hmm, two fish with similar anatomy. Who would have thought it.

Tell me. Is the physiology of a tuna remotely like a Mammal?

Did mammals evolve from Tuna?

Have you the foggiest idea how either of these systems actually work?

Or are you just throwing examples of diversification at me to prove that Evolution diversifies? Yes, Evolution diversifies. That was never in question.

I am not a theologian officially. I am a Christian with a personal faith. There is nothing for you to challenge.

You do seem to have some sort of possessiveness about Science. It is quite fascinating. You take it all personally. I wonder why?

Why does it matter to you?

Richard

Psychological solipsism? Wow.

Love it!

He’s not dismissing “anything and everything [he] [doesn’t] like as ‘so called facts’”, he’s denying that there are any facts.

No – it is pseudoscience when you ignore reams of facts and instead lie about a handful you can use to fool people. That’s the difference between actual science and YEC: one uses honest measures, the other uses lies.

Like Tom Clancy’s books? They do, after all, perfectly fit your criteria for calling something “eyewitness accounts”.

Amen! But YEC doesn’t actually care about thee text, they only care about their version of an English translation, ignoring the fact that the idea of a global flood does not come from the text but from a linguistic phenomenon where meaning alters due to translation, and then a cultural phenomenon where familiar texts get translated not according to the actual meaning of terms but according to accumulated tradition.

The dominion of opinion:
an act that ignores fact.

This brought to mind a situation where it was discovered that a certain Hebrew word for which no one had ever pinned down a meaning was actually a Ugaritic (oo-gar-i-tic) loan word: despite the fact that numerous words in the OT text were loan words from other languages, one scholar stubbornly rejected the idea that God would allow an Ugaritic word to be used in scripture. How it was possible to accept that there are quite a few Egyptian loan words in the Pentateuch yet reject the possibility that there could be one from Ugaritic shocked me – though it didn’t quite baffle me; he argued that since the Israelites had lived in Egypt it was sensible that they borrowed words, but they never lived in Ugarit . . . .
I remember stumbling over the idea of loan words in the Bible briefly myself, but it was brief since I’d read Xenophon and Herodotus so I knew that Koine Greek has loan words.

No, that’s supposition – it isn’t in the text; the text doesn’t tell us what all they spoke about, so we can’t assume that everything in the Torah falls under that rubric.

Since scripture doesn’t say that, of course I don’t believe it.

No, he didn’t – he wrote about a flood of the known world. The idea that it was global comes from linguistic drift and human tradition.

And Paul references Greek philosophy while Peter references Greek mythology – your argument would have us believe that we are supposed to take Greek mythology as history and Greek philosophy as equal to scripture!

Justify that statement or admit that you are making false accusations (again).

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The nested hierarchy has been a fundamental principle of biology since Linnaeus first described it in the mid 1700’s, 100 years before the theory of evolution.

A fossil with a mixture of non-avian dinosaur and bird features means nothing?

A fossil with a rudimentary pelvic girdle and fins means nothing?

T. rex had honeycomb bones. That’s what you asked for, a non-avian dinosaur with honeycomb bones.

“The data does not seem available, unless you can find a non avian fossil with honeycomb bones,”–RichardG

Yes, I do know how they work. You have claimed that there would have to be many, many changes in physiology in order go from cold blooded to warm blooded. Have you changed your mind on this one?

Then let me reword it. From what I understand you are a preacher, or at least a church leader. I can tell by what you write that you know much more about theology than I do. Therefore, I would do a lot of research before I challenged you on a theological point.

I don’t take it personal.

I usually refer to xkcd on this one:

image

On the plus side, I often learn a lot looking up the answers.

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I have to confess that I’m probably not able to judge what is realistic given that the vast majority of my cognitive-realm interactions with people have been with those in the top one-eighth of the intelligence range, so my sample is seriously skewed.

It baffles me how they fail to see that they are endorsing a secular worldview and using it as the foundation for understanding scripture.

Interesting label.

But that’s so . . . undignified! :upside_down_face:

Nice. :+1:

I suspect that’s the toughest for everyone.

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Er, excuse me?

I don’t know if you noticed, but it was actually my good self who started this thread in the first place. I did so with a specific question in mind. Namely, am I expecting too much of my friends on Facebook by expecting them to understand such elementary basics as how to search Google, to do basic arithmetic, and to understand that measurement is a thing?

To say that I don’t get my own question is absurd. On the other hand, if it’s your answer that you think I don’t get, then perhaps you ought to consider the possibility that maybe, just maybe, that’s because your answer doesn’t answer my question.

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On a college freshman level, perhaps, but there are things that just can’t be said in ordinary language, and some that can’t even be explained in technical language but require those “complex data and diagrams”.

I knew people who passed “diff-e-cues” yet still didn’t understand them.
(For my part, I saw the “deer in headlights” look on guys’ faces when coming back from class and decided I wasn’t going to bother with that class.)

I’d say you’re not getting it. Your position would be find if we lived in absolute monarchies, but in societies where citizens manage to have some say about issues the public absolutely has to have a basic grasp of science in order to make rational decisions about many of those issues. My favorite example is the business about nuclear power in the U.S.: because most people don’t understand science we are stuck with electrical generation by coal-burning power plants that throw more radiation into the environment in a year than a nuclear plant will in its entire operating life . . . and that’s just part of the danger of burning coal!

See just above.

Not by the evidence on this forum – that indicates that you know far less than you think you do.

Did you even read what I said? My example demonstrated that your assertion is wrong.

Why would I want to indulge someone’s fantasies?

That wasn’t true when I was still in university and I doubt it’s true now – such sloppy assertions didn’t pass muster for scientific papers then and most likely don’t now.

(Though I’m not going to look; wading through scientific papers in biology was enough agony for me back when I delighted in academic pursuits, I’m not interested in repeating such mental self-flagellation).

That’s the example I was trying to remember!

And wasn’t there an example found recently of a species where the crossover is actually occurring?

Why? Wings help with running, help more with gliding; from there it’s a few physiological changes to get to using them for lift.

No, which is evidence for descent and against individual design.

In the U.S. it matters because stupid people with stupid ideas about science are advocating for stupid policies that will have disastrous results.

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That’s essentially because evolutionary biology, physiology, and ecology are three different fields, with three different sets of experts, and three different sets of papers. If I want to know about the physiology of likely intermediate states, I would ask an animal physiologist, not an evolutionary biologist or systematist.

The size change between those is trivial. There are members of individual genera (like Paleoloxodon) that differ in mass by factors of over 100, and seem to share common ancestors within 3 million years. Birds tend to vary much less, but as there are rather smaller birds known from the late Jurassic (crow to jay-sized), there’s not that much of a jump there.

It didn’t:

Is a perfectly valid guess for how that might have worked. I see no impossibilities in that sequence, and it seems to fit with what fossils we have.

There are fish intermediate between the two.

But there are a lot that they can, and evolutionary mechanisms are one of those.

To take a related example from my actual field of expertise, the number of people that I would trust to accurately identify eulimids in Neogene deposits in the Southeastern United States to species without looking at a reference is 0. I look at my own publication and others to identify them. The number of people whose “turrid” identifications I would trust (living or dead) for southeastern US Neogene deposits is maybe about 10. Because those are the only people who have studied them enough to do so.

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Neither do a few hundred species of fossil shells that I’ve seen (well, properly, most of them have a Latin name, they just don’t have two yet).

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James -

I’m coming to this thread relatively late, it seems, but I thought I’d take the somewhat radical step of actually attempting to address your original question.

My own background is as a physician in a very busy private practice. I’m not engaged in anything resembling ongoing scientific research — in point of fact, experimenting on our patients is generally discouraged. :wink:

But FWIW, my own take on this is that “scientific inquiry,” aka methodological naturalism, aka whatever term you think fits best — is all ultimately a way of knowing. it’s one of many ways of knowing available to us…theology, morality & ethics, mathematics & logic, art — these are all ways of knowing. As you’re fond of saying, science as a way of knowing has rules, Other ways of knowing have rules, as well. Math has rules. Music as an art form to a lesser degree has rules; guys like Thelonius Monk & some avant garde composers have broken certain of those rules, perhaps, but there are still some rules. Something has to apply to make it “music” vs. a disorganized cacophony of noise, like traffic.

But when it comes to finding out about the natural world, scientific inquiry is the way of knowing which we utilize. It’s what gets us from position “A,” where there’s some things which I know, to position “B,” where I’ll know more. “Science” is the bridge that gets me from A to B, and like any bridge, it’s constructed according to certain principles & rules. I’d submit that there are 5 basic principles to this bridge. Others may have a list with more rules. Still others may have a list with fewer. But I’ll go with these 5….

  1. The basic properties of matter & energy are both (a) unchanging across time, and (b) truly “universal” in the sense that they’re the same everywhere. Things like the speed of light, the force of gravity, the properties of subatomic particles & how they ultimately form atoms & later molecules, the properties of water as a solvent, and its freezing & boiling points…all of those things are constants in nature. This is what allows us to perform methodological observations, to repeat our experiment tomorrow; this is what allows others to repeat the experiment in Korea tomorrow.

(2) It is imperative & assumed that one will make accurate & reproducible measurements using a constant system of weights & measurement…ie, the metric system. I can’t articulate this any better than you have, James…countless times on this forum in the past.

There are errors involved in almost all measurements, because (a) people are doing the measuring, and people make mistakes, (b) my kilogram measuring thingy may be slightly different vs. the official kilogram in that glass case that they keep in Paris, or Geneva, or wherever it is, and (c) science is hard sometimes; sometimes it’s hard to measure things. But, it’s also understood that one accounts for the errors in measurement appropriately.

(3) Math works. We can do math to fill in gaps in what we can measure directly. Depending on the types of data involved, different statistical tools are more appropriate than others. But often it’s essentially a more elaborate version of a middle school math problem, where one is given 2 or 3 data points on an x-y graph, and you have to solve where the line would cross the x-axis. If you can measure when 0.0001% of a radioactive isotope undergoes beta decay, and 0.0002%, and 0.0003%,…you can extrapolate that to where 50% would undergo decay, and voila, you have a half-life. Why? Because you’re making careful measurements of a known constant of nature, ie, the physics of the atomic nucleus…and you’re doing the math.

(4) The principle of falsifiability…principally attributed to the philosopher Karl Popper. Popper held that for a hypothesis or theory to be truly scientific, there must exist at least the hypothetical possibility that someone could make an observation that would prove that hypothesis/theory incorrect, or at least in need of modification. IIRC, Popper’s famous example of “pseudoscience” was Freudian psychoanalysis.

(5) Peer review…perhaps the most important principle of all. If you think you’ve come up with an interesting scientific discovery, you write it up as a paper. All scientific journal submissions have the same format…whether in physics, biochemistry, or medical research studies. Importantly, you’re expected to show all your data — there’s no Colonel’s secret recipe; if you don’t show your data, nobody’s going to believe you. You show your math. And you invite others to take a crack at it, too.

And this is what I think so many creationist advocates fail to understand. There’s not a “consensus” that the Big Bang occurred 13.8-ish billion years ago because a bunch of evil godless astronomers met in a smoke filled room & cast lots on what numbers they could conjure up that would tick off a bunch of Bible-toting Christians. Or because they had a flawed “worldview” that didn’t appropriately recognize biblical authority. Rather, thousands of individuals by now have made countless careful measurements of physical processes that have thus far been seen to be constant & unchanging (eg, the physics of microwave radiation), they’ve done the math, and they’ve allowed lots of other folks to take their own best crack at measuring the same phenomena. And, slowly but surely, these accumulated corporate observations have honed in on a value with smaller & smaller error bars.

This is where so-called “creation science” so often ultimately fails…the infamous Rate Project fails spectacularly on all five of the above; but I think perhaps I’ll leave that topic for another time. Cheers, brother.

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My younger brother insists that music IS math. When that insight struck him he was suddenly able to sit down and play many classical pieces on the piano from memory, so there must be something to it.

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This is what we should expect from a Creator one of whose attributes is faithfulness.

My older brother the mathematician would say math is reality and the universe works to conform to it – an it is the task of science to find out just which system of math the universe aspires to. :innocent:

I had a physics prof who told us that our real task in lab work was to try to find exceptions to accepted theory. We never did, but he told each new class every year the same thing.

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Not unless it is in direct lineage , no. You are producing spider’s webs not lineage… It doesn’t matter a jot whether T-rex had hollow bones. He is not in line for avian development. Why can’t you see this?

You are comparing two fish to a mammal and a reptile, so no. Plus the water environment is not the same as an air one. All fish have the same scaley epidermis.

Tell you what, let"s play specialise body part lottery

T rex gets the hollowed bones

Someone else gets some featers. Not much use but they look pretty

A girdle to another, enlarged sturnum and so on but Archaeopterix, you get the jackpot. You get them all and guess what? They all gel together! And we will even throw in flying lessons.

This is a real life changer ang your progeny will outnumber the stars in the Heavens.

Aw never mind it is all just fantasy.

Richard

The theory of evolution predicts that there was once species with a mixture of non-avian dinosaur and bird features, and that is exactly what we observe. This is why scientists accept the theory of evolution, because it makes risky and accurate predictions. If that isn’t good enough for you, then you reject the scientific process. It’s a supported hypothesis and a product of the scientific method.

I am comparing vertebrates. The theory of evolution predicts that we should see a fossil with a mixture of fish and tetrapod features, and that is exactly what we see.

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Yeah, I get it, but the actual benefit of these traits does not arise until the birds (as my playful little lottery suggested) To relegate feathers to either display or insulation would seem to be naive.

Basically, if you look at the minor differences between the Galapagos finches, and how long it took, the diversity of birds would need to take longer than even you have. And the genetic diversity from one primal avian should not be enough to produce the diversity of modern birds.

It is a nice neat story ToE has produced, but it still does not stand up to the scrutiny That I am suggesting. I am not saying that you are completely wrong, only that there is something missing or a quicker means of diversity than random deviation from the evidence we have.

I will admit that I have not kept abreast of all the discoveries and the many new creatures that have been found since my days at College. Nevertheless the principles of Evolutionary change have not really changed. The focus is microcellular but the fossils are macro,.and still span a very limited time period in proportion to the current Age view of the Universe. And are still incomplete in terms of every change, but completeness would be nigh on impossible. which ever was the truth.

It does no harm to voice these concerns, and I thank you for your forbearance

Richard

They still existed. Whether you think they are useful or not has nothing to do with whether they existed or not.

All empty assertions. There is absolutely no reason why morphological change should occur a set and specific rate, and you give no reasons why one population could not give rise to more genetic diversity of hundreds of millions of years.

The changes you claimed couldn’t exist do exist.

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Oh so Genetic pools are no longer a thing then?

I have told you a million times not to exaggerate

Richard

Right. My understanding is that there’s some mathematical structure applicable to a standard 8-note scale, but I’ll be the first to admit that I don’t know enough about such things to hold up my half of anything resembling a meaningful conversation about it.

Another rule that applies to music is that of time signatures, and again, various folks have played with those rules to a degree over the years, changing the time signature in the middle of the piece, etc. Pink Floyd did this w/ “Money” & “Shine on You Crazy Diamond,” and Zeppelin did it w/ “Four Sticks.” The latter I know jumps back & forth between 5/8 & 6/8 time. But the point is that even if one bends the rules to some degree, there’s still time signatures involved. It’s not just random noise.

Guess I’m kinda showing my age here, huh? :sunglasses:

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