How do we tackle the argument that the OT seems to believe that the Mosaic covenant is eternal?

I think a better way to approach the question is to ask how Jesus and the apostles approached it. In practice, the Old Testament contains a hotchpotch of different ideas which are uninformed by their fulfilment in Christ. It is not surprising, therefore, that interpretators of the Old Testament go off on a frolic of their own, leading to many and varied responses and interpretations. For example, the idea that the moral elements of the law remain, but not the ceremonial laws, has more to do with medieval scholars looking for clues as to how to structure a society known as “Christendom” in their own time than any insightful analysis of the New Testament in its own context. Equally as anachronistic is the so-called “New Perspective”, which wants to interpret ancient documents in such a way that they do not encourage anti-Semitism.

The second important factor is to realize that there are different genres of literature in the New Testament. The Gospels are literary works of art which each have ways of expressing Christian belief. To understand them, one needs to perceive a “macro” view of their theology and perceive how individual pericopes fit within the larger view. You will get a different theology in Matthew than you do in Luke-Acts. Then, of course, come the letters of St Paul, an apostle who doesn’t mince words.

Does the Old Covenant still stand? The simple answer is “no”. That answer is because of one eschatological event known as the resurrection. Take a look at Matthew’s Gospel, which we are told was written for the sake of Jews who had become Christians. In chapter 5:17 Jesus says:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.” (Matthew 5:17 NIV)

Some have taken the view that the word “fulfil” here means to keep the precepts of the Law of Moses. There are two things which go against such an understanding in Matthew’s use of the word “fulfil”. Matthew does not use the Greek word anywhere else in his Gospel as meaning “keep the Law”, it is rather used to describe the fulfilment of prophecy. In chapter 11:13 Matthew writes,

“For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John.” (Mat 11:13 NIV)

We can see here that the Law has a role in prophesying. The notion is akin to that found in Paul (Colossians 2:17) and in the anonymous letter to the Hebrews (10:1) where the Law is described as a shadow and no true image. Lest there be too much doubt, Luke renders this in a parallel passage:

"The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it.” (Luke 16:16 NIV) It is not that any precept of the Law will be removed. It will remain there as an antique. It is just that since the resurrection, there is a new way for all people, whether Jews or Gentiles, to relate to God.

The second thing about this statement in Matthew 5:17 is to note the two conditional statements about the Law.

“For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:18 NIV)

So, what does Matthew mean by these two conditional statements? Let’s go to the death/resurrection of Christ in Matthew’s Gospel. The story is profoundly different from the other Gospels.

“And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit. At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.” (Matthew 27:50-53 NIV)

Whoa there Matthew! Aren’t you getting a bit ahead of yourself? St Paul also links the resurrection of Christ to the general resurrection of the dead, but Matthew is fudging it to make a point The Law was a tricky subject amongst Jews and required some subtlety. Eventually the penny drops.

OK, let’s look at Paul as someone who doesn’t mince words. First some background. The united kingdom of Israel only lasted for two kings (David and Solomon). After Solomon’s death, civil war broke out, and the nation split into the northern kingdom of Israel and the southern kingdom of Judah. A Jew or Judahite could be either of the tribe of Judah, or the southern kingdom of Judah (which also included the tribe of Benjamin). In Philippians 3, Paul delivers his credentials. He is an Israelite of the tribe of Benjamin. He was circumcised on his eighth day and was zealous in his approach to the Law. Blah, blah, blah. But all this he regards as loss for the sake of knowing Christ. He goes further in deprecating the Mosaic Covenant in verse 8, which is usually translated as “garbage” for the public reading of Scripture. However, the BDAG Lexicon says the true import of the word is that he regards it as a “load of crap”. He refers to the Jews who call themselves “the circumcision” as “the mutilation”.

I think the “eternity” of the Old Testament refers to the end of the age. An age which has been proleptically fulfilled with the resurrection of Christ. Perhaps part of the problem is in not taking the resurrection of Christ seriously and imagining the profound transformation it had upon those who experienced it.

Everything in the Old Testament is but a shadow that points to Christ the reality. He is the fulfillment of the throne, the Temple, and the Sabbath.

Exactly: that rest begins the moment we are baptized into Him.

I think this included link is worth reading:

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Is There a “Lord’s Day”? | Desiring God : I cite it.

(Oh, that’s what you implied. :slightly_smiling_face:)

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What is the most important thing that’s ever happened?

The resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

What is the most important thing that’s ever happened
 in heaven or on earth?

The resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ? I think so.

When did God (or the Godhead) truly rest? (Was creation any sweat for him?)

On the first day of the week.

Might we be celebrating Resurrection Day in heaven?

I think distinctly maybe.

I agree fully!

I would say the Incarnation since the work of redemption began with His conception and continued through the Ascension; the Crucifixion was the “high point” and critical moment, and the Resurrection the “victory parade”.

Every day’s Resurrection day.

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Yeah, I’ve heard and believe that every day is the Lord’s day, but not every day is The Lord’s Day as was understood by the early church.

When did God truly rest? You don’t think the OT Sabbath (it was just a little important, I seem to recall)
 you don’t think it foreshadowed when God truly rested?

(Nice word. ; - )

A general reply to the worship of the ressurection

Please show bible references where God (or even Christ) blessed, sanctified, hallowed, or even modelled Sunday as a replacement for 7th day Sabbath.

The bible very specifically tells us in both THE NEW and OLD TESTAMENTS, that entering into His rest is directly linked to the 7th day of Creation week and Salvation. Ive quoted texts that directly make these links
these are my interpretation
however its pretty hard to discount them one only has to read the cross referencing in your own bibles and or concordance for Hebews 4:1. It isnt rocket science and a dummy can find and lookup the cross references.

Maybe not now . . .

But maybe we’ve lost something important relevant to now. :slightly_smiling_face:

Good question, since God started working again once Adam sinned – at least I presume that’s what’s behind Jesus’ statement that “my Father is working till now”.

Of course it did – everything in the Old Testament is just a shadow of the reality in Christ.

But keep in mind that in the context of the Genesis Creation account “rest” for God means to take up His place and rule a Creation that was all working properly. Since Adams sin, Creation isn’t working properly, so God is no longer resting, and since Christ God’s rest and our rest converge.

The OT includes examples of updating details of the Law to meet a new situation. The establishment of a permanent center under David and Solomon led to some revisions in the logistics for priests and Levites. Nehemiah 10 has some regulations added to help ensure that the logistics of maintaining the temple worship were provided for. So there is room for some modification. The NT affirms that many contemporary interpretations of the Law had missed the point, and Jesus’ statement about the law on divorce being a concession to the way the people were opens a huge can of worms about what aspects of the law were permanent.

Many of the laws sound somewhat similar to “Knives and matches bad!” - an appropriate directive for one just starting to learn, but hopefully later superseded by a grasp of the proper use.

The ones that stand out to me are when the prophets tell the people that God despises many of the very things He commanded! That is a theme that Jesus picks up on in the Sermon on the Mount where He takes certain ‘laws’ and extends them to the ultimate conclusion, thereby demonstrating what Paul writes later, that it just isn’t possible to follow the Law. That point in turn leads to another, i.e. that the Law was supposed to teach principles, e.g. mercy and faithfulness, so that it pointed beyond itself to the need for a different covenant. Then of Course Jeremiah comes right out and says it, that God will be making a new covenant that will in effect make the old one useless since the spirit of the old one that people didn’t get will be written on the hearts of those who are God’s.


was the analogue for the fourth commandment, part of the encapsulation of moral law. Are there any others of the Ten you would care to set aside, ignore, nullify or relax, speaking of the Sermon on the Mount?

That pretty much ignores the significance of the commandment itself, isolating it from its practice and ‘theologizes’ it. And it does not ‘keep in mind’ anything I said about the reality of Lord’s Day of Rest and its importance to Father’s heart.

The problem seems to be that men turned the original intention, content and partly the context of the commandment to something else. What was commanded to be something good and godly had become a caricature of the original.

Sacrifices were a reminder of sin and the need for getting (and giving) forgiveness but had turned to a calculated way to justify a life that had a white surface but dark content.

I assume that also the commandment of Sabbath suffered from a similar kind of transformation from the original purpose to something that God never intended. What Jesus did was attacking the twisted caricature supported by the religious leaders, not the original intention and content of the commandment.

I do not support the teaching that the first day of the week is the ‘sabbath’ of Christians, and that we must rest on the first day of the week as the Jews had to rest on the Sabbath day. We exchanged comments about this with @Dale in an earlier thread and I am not intending to go through the same arguments again. As Romans 14 teaches, we can both have our interpretations and yet be followers of the same Jesus.

do you think that agrees with Hebrews 4?

1Therefore, while the promise of entering His rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be deemed to have fallen short of it. 2For we also received the good news just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, since they did not share the faith of those who comprehended it.a

It would appear to me that in fact the rest of the Seventh Day Sabbath is not restricted or instituted because of sin
I think that the bible is making the point that whilst sin has corrupted creation, the sabbath remains exactly as instituted BEFORE sin entered the world.

Its pretty clear that the aim of the plan of salvation is to restore us
I dont see how that can happen if the Sabbath is done away with at the cross, the Sabbath rest was given before sin and the bible is telling us to return to that rest
we cant return if its thrown out? The fulfillment of the promise in Hebrews was not complete at the cross
the Old Testament Sanctuary service proves to us that the Day of Atonement service is not yet complete. We cannot enter Gods rest until it is complete and that is after the Second Coming of Christ so how canone throw out the Sabbath saying its all fulfilled?

I do 't set aside anything, I just maintain that when the Holy Spirit in Acts 15 reduced the Law of Moses to four items that’s what He meant.

First, I just pointed out what “rest” means in the context of Genesis 1, and how that fits with what Jesus said about His Father still working – and if He’s working then He’s not resting.

God’s rest is in Christ, not in any day. We celebrate the Lord’s Day not because it replaces the Sabbath (it doesn’t) but because it’s Resurrection Day, the day that Jesus knocked Death into the ditch. The Resurrection is the beginning of the restoration of God’s rest, the point where our rest and God’s rest converge.

As for the Sermon on the Mount, you can’t just select part of the Law and claim that it applies; you either take the whole thing or none at all – or go with what the Spirit decreed in Acts 15. The Ten are in the same basket as not eating shellfish, not wearing garments made of two materials, not planting different crops together in a field, and putting a fence/railing around your roof: they served as a “tutor” to point us to Christ, and are now a source for drawing out principles by understanding how they applied to the people of Israel and how that can guide us in our situations.

So the principle of a day of rest helps inform our celebration of Resurrection Day; it is not a rule, or Paul would not indicate that it’s fine if some regard all days as alike.

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Maybe it’s because I haven’t had my morning mocha yet, but I’m at a loss to recall if the Sunday = Sabbath bit is just a western/Roman thing or not.

Okay, the Orthodox reject the idea that Sunday is the Sabbath; the Sabbath is still honored not due to a commandment but due to its link to the Resurrection. It’s treated as a day of preparation for the Lord’s Day, i.e. Resurrection Day, a remnant of the old put in service to the New. They also point out that for purposes of the Sabbath recreation is not counted as work (though Sabbath recreation should be family oriented) though any recreation should be informed by preparation for the Lord’s Day.

It’s interesting that Sunday = Sabbath was apparently only a thing in the west yet none of the Reformers seem to have questioned that – were the views of the east just not known?

I don’t think it’s really an argument to tackle nor does the OT only “seem” to believe this. It’s as plain as day. Jesus also called 12 apostles and told them they would judge the 12 tribes of Israel and said he did not come to abolish the law.

What does it meant to “fulfill” an eternal covenant? Jesus said he came to fulfill the Law and didn’t do away with it in Matthew.

Matthew 5:18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus seems to have had no idea here we are under grace and the law no longer applies. Maybe the simplest solution is to distinguish between Jew and Gentile? The law still applies to Jews as their covenant was eternal? This would create friction with Paul but I always give red letters in the Bible precedence over what Paul says. So did Paul apparently in 1 Cor 7 where he is ultra careful to distinguish his commands from those of Jesus. Paul sometimes loses his train of thought and argues himself into pickles. Conservative Christians might not like it but it happens.

How about the rest of what’s encapsulated in the “Big Ten?” Do you also embrace the polytheism of the Big Ten? “You shall have no other gods before[a] me.

Do you still believe God punishes children to the third and forth generation on account of their parent’s sins as the “Big Ten” does?

Exodus 20:5 for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Ezekiel has something interesting to say about that moral insanity. Do you still believe women are the property of men as the “Big Ten” does?

Exodus 20:17 You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

I doubt my wife would enjoy me listing her alongside my possessions (especially farm animals).

The Old Testament consists of multiple streams of thought. Ezekiel doesn’t like the sentiments in the commandment in Exodus 20 ( and elsewhere) about God punishing children for their parent’s sins to the 3rd of 4th generation).

Exodus 20:5: "You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me

Ezekiel 18:20: The person who sins shall die. A child shall not suffer for the iniquity of a parent nor a parent suffer for the iniquity of a child; the righteousness of the righteous shall be their own, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be their own. [see 1-19 as well]

It is important to understand how scripture understands, views and treats itself. A lengthy quote from Dale Allison will explain

One possible way of accounting for the conflicting signals in the tradition involves thinking less about theology and more about rhetoric. Some of us are wont to think of ancient Jews, at least the pious ones, as though they were modern fundamentalists, so that they would never have sounded as revolutionary as Jesus sometimes does. But this is misperception. Some Jews not only felt free to rewrite Scripture - illustrative are Jubilees and the Life of Adam and Eve, both of which freely transform Genesis - but some also were further able, in the words of Michael Fishbane, to use “authoritative Torah-teaching as a didactic foil.” Indeed, “the Jewish device of twisting Scripture, of subjecting the earlier canon to radical reinterpretation by means of subtle reformulations, is now recognized as central to the Bible as a whole.” When Job gripes, “What are human beings, that you make so much of them, that you set your mind on them?” (7:17), is not he recalling the famous Ps 8, “What are human beings that you are mindful of them, mortals that you care for them?” (v. 4) and thereby inverting and mocking the liturgy? Psalm 144, in rewriting Psalm 18, turns it from a thanksgiving into a complaint. Joel 3:9-10 (“Prepare war
Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruning hooks into spears”) prophesies war in the language of a famous prophecy of peace (Isa 2:4 = Mic 4:3: “They shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks
 neither shall they learn war any more”). Joel makes similar rhetorical moves elsewhere, as when he transfers prophetic threats against Babylon (Isa 13:6) and Egypt (Ezek 30:2) into warnings against Jerusalem (Joel 1:15), and when the prophecy that the wilderness will be turned into Eden (Isa 51:3; Ezek 36:35) becomes a prophecy that Eden will be turned into a wilderness (Joel 2:3). Jonah seems to revise the narrow understanding of divine grace within Joel 2:1-17 - unless it is Joel 2:1-17 that is narrowing the more universal understanding of Jonah. Isa 40:28 declares that God needs no rest, 45:7 that God creates darkness – about-faces from the primeval history. “The oracular formula in Isa. 56.4 signals the announcement of a new word of YHWH, a word that annuls the legal stipulations of Deut. 23.2-9.” Daniel 12:4 foretells that at the end, “many will be running back and forth, and knowledge will increase.” This takes up Amos 8:12 - at the end 'pp, v. 2) “they will run back and forth, seeking the word of the LORD, but they shall not find it” - and so turns prophetic pessimism into words of hope. Resurrecting Jesus]

Jonah and Nahum interpret the Ninevites radically differently as well. This is from Peter Enns in the Bible tells me so:

The passover meal in Deut and Exodus and codes for slaves in both places are also different. These may all address a slightly different question but there is precedence for scripture commenting on or disagreeing with other scripture. Maybe the real problem is much of the Church’s current model of inspiration and using literal, concordant reading of the OT covenant rather than seeing the text as accommodated to its time and capable of nationalistic exuberance and hyperbole. I don’t have a good answer but scripture itself is very complicated. If God want to change the terms of His covenant I suspect He is free to do so. Many Christians are perfectly fine with this until they put the shoe on the other foot and think about God doing it again


The comments and dialogue with JPH made that page excellent to read overall. Thank you.

The law was definitely not a prison. Psalm 119 should be mandatory reading for all Christians

I hate and abhor falsehood but I love your law.
164
Seven times a day I praise you for your righteous laws.
165
Great peace have they who love your law, and nothing can make them stumble.
166
I wait for your salvation, O LORD, and I follow your commands.
167
I obey your statutes, for I love them greatly."

“Your statutes are my delight; they are my counselors.”

“All your words are true; all your righteous laws are eternal.”

The Law is not a burden, it was a blessing to true Jews. The Law = Chosen by God."

You have the fact that it seems none of them obeyed them along with Peter’s triple vision, Paul on the Law, Acts 15 and the gloss in Mark 7 (that both Matthew and Luke omit when copying his gospel in creating their own). it says Jesus declared all foods clean. “Thus he declared all foods clean.” Many take this is a nullification of kosher food laws but there are certainly other interpretations. Crossley put out an interesting one. Jesus was talking about hand washing and purity. He was not talking about shell-fish and pork
that wouldn’t have been considered “food” to him or his audience so it’s not in his mind. It takes a little wiggling to get there though but Jesus’s comment makes more sense that way in light of the rest of the tradition.

I think the lack of other laws in Acts 15 at the Jerusalem council is telling.

Vinnie

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Then the Holy Spirit disagrees with Jesus.

I think your ignoring my argument is telling.

He was talking about the New Moon Sabbaths and other special ones, not the weekly ones.