I agree that all who say they are Christians are not followers of Jesus, ‘believers’, ‘in the faith’, ‘walking on the Road’, ‘within salvation’, or whatever term one wants to use. It is not always easy to say who is and who is not because there is no external sign showing the status. Having different interpretations about biblical scriptures is not a sign of who is a follower of Jesus because faith and knowledge are not the same - we are saved through faith, not through correct knowledge or following of external rules.
I would not normally use the expression ‘test yourself’ because it is not evident what it means. Paul used that expression if I remember correctly but using ‘biblical’ expressions is not always the best option because using words without understanding the content does not help. It may also be that believers have different interpretations about what the expression means.
I think that illustrates how much thinking about the scriptures has been warped by the use of “eternal” to translate a pair of terms that really don’t mean that. “Eternal” indicates time just going on and something never ending, but the terms that are translated with that word don’t actually mean that, they mean “for the duration of the (or ‘an’) age”, where an age is however long is required for something to be completed.
Testing ourselves as Paul puts it is to see if we are in the faith. That’s not something that has to do with following rules, it has to do with where we put our trust. Luther explains that a god is whatever we put our trust in and give devotion to, and where we turn for comfort, and in that light “test yourself” is about asking where we put our trust and confidence and what we devote our time to. It’s easy to drift along thinking we are trusting Christ while putting trust in other things such as the size of our bank accounts, our skill at a job, the comforting power of certain music, the familiarity of some specific location, and so on.
As someone with PTSD and thus anxiety issues, I have developed various things that help me regain calm, and I have to ask myself if I am trusting in those things rather than trusting Jesus with my anxiety. I’ve had periods of depression where my response is to buy things, and by Luther’s definition I have to ask whether shopping or gaining possessions is at that point my “god”.
In terms of “Am I in the faith?” those are the questions we should be asking first. In addition, we have the Nicene Creed giving the confessional content of the faith that we can use to ask, “Do I really believe in God the Father as maker of heaven and Earth? Do I really believe that Jesus came down from heaven for us humans and for our salvation? Do I really believe that the Holy Spirit is the Lord and the giver of life?” – which turn out to be more than just intellectual questions but go back to the idea of in whom and in what we put our trust.
And on Whom we fix our eyes. Indirectly from William James (not a source to trust on spiritual matters!), what we pay attention to is a continuous moral choice that we make.
if you truly believe this, why then is it fundamentally important for Christians to root themselves in science and elevate scientific theory above the authority of the Bible as so often appears to be the case on these forums?
Doesnt the bible focus on mankind’s inability to root themselves in the biblical explanation for the fall of mankind and the redemption process?
Do we need Science of any kind in order to be saved?
I dont believe that the Bible teaches Science…but it does very specifically describe origins from different writers who did not have access to extensive libraries, other scholars, or the internet. These writers also lived not only hundreds of km’s apart, but also hundreds of years apart! We have a large historical genealogy base in the Old Testament, which is referenced for example by Matthew in the New Testament, and we also have the biblical theme itself.
One of the real problems for Old Age theology is that Biblical interpretation does not necessarily come from single words or single passages of scripture. My own church’s statement of faith is mostly eclectic in terms of its biblical sources. As a young earth believer, i simply start with the overall biblical theme (Creation, Fall, Redemption, and Salvation) and then extrapolate from there.
When we talk about the Fall, which is a very significant Christian doctrine…it is simply not possible to theologically support the view that phsical death is not a consequence of sin. The Bible is absolutely full of passages that very definitively tell us, “the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ our Lord” Romans 6:23. Some continue to try to argue that its only a spiritual death…however, Christ physically died on the cross as an atonement for sin in fulfillment of Exodus 30:10! This means taht the statement by God to Adam and Eve in Genesis 3:15 is not an allegory, it was a prophecy with a real/literal outcome!
Generally biblical prophecies have exactly the same intention… a real outcome. True they may be conditional, but the outcome if the condition is not met was intended to be real (no different to a parent telling their child that “if they do not do as they are told”…well, you know the rest )
If death is allegorical and spiritual in Genesis 3, please explain theologically why Christ suffered physical punishment and died physically for the sins of all mankind exactly as prophesied to Eve In Genesis 3:15 and illustrated in the Old Testament Sanctuary service?
Another example of using biblical themes for doctrine is found in the doctrine of the Trinity. We dont find a single text with the word trinity in it, however, we glean that doctrine from a large number of both Old and New Testament writers that describe God as the harmonious unification of The Father, Son and Holy Spirit (3 persons - One God).
It can be argued either way. God told them that in whatever day they ate of that fruit “dying you shall die”. The repetition of the verb for dying emphasizes the certainty of the matter.
Additionally, the description of Adam being made from the dust was a common way of saying that humans are mortal, which would indicate that he was already subject to death, in which case the death indicated here can’t be physical death.
The best balance between the two is that while Adam was mortal, that mortality was not absolute, i.e. death could have been avoided, but with his sin it became inevitable.
But it was also a spiritual death as we see when they tried to hide from God; that tells us that they actually experienced the separation and were afraid to face Him.
Christ’s physical death does not require that the death Adam was warned about was physical – indeed given the ancient worldview that Israel shared with the rest of the ancient near east physical death could have have been seen as secondary, that is, a result of spiritual death.
Christ’s death on the Cross nullifies Exodus 30:10, according to the writer of Hebrews.
Thanks for the clarification of ‘testing ourselves’. I agree.
The only problem I have with the expression is that people may think something entirely different when someone says ‘test yourself’. My approach would be to ask ‘who or what is your god?’
I do not think that correct knowledge is needed for salvation. You could think that flat Earth is carried by pink elephants and that would not prevent you being saved. It seems that God is not very interested in correcting our wrong beliefs about the world and universe, He is interested in our relationship with Him.
Discussions about different interpretations may become heated because we are just humans. Showing that I am correct and you are wrong is a common tendency in this kind of debates. As long as an interpretation does not threaten the salvation of others, we can all have our opinions and wait that God leads the other person to deeper understanding about the truth. If someone believes that pink elephants are carrying flat Earth that does not harm me.
When an interpretation threatens the salvation of others, the matter gets weight. As far as I know, many young believers have forsaken their previous faith when they have learned that the YEC teachings do not stand the test of reality - facts do not support the interpretation that Earth and universe are young. That makes it important to show that YEC is just one interpretation of biblical scriptures and based on the evidence, not a correct one.
Also, interest in what is true and opposed to intentionally promoting lies, is important for us, particularly if we claim to have faith in Christ. Using science for the latter should be rejected, although recognizing that science encourages speculation with tests is necessary.
I wonder what the numbers would have been like if they’d focused on university and college students; I suspect that #3 would have ranked first, followed closely by #1.
That’s why I get so intense. I don’t know how many fellow students I watched follow the YEC logic and decide that the whole Bible couldn’t be trusted – and I don’t know how many more I could have helped if I’d had my priorities better.
I do not agree with any of this. you have provided no biblical references to even support a single statement there and Hebrews Ch 4 states the direct opposite of this claim!
I again put it to you:
If Adam and Eves warning, the fall, and then entry of sin into this world is not atoned by physical death, 4500 years of the killing of sheep and goats and then the sacrifice of the Lord Himself on the cross (to pay the wages of sin is death Romans 6:23), then what was the atonement for?
The writer of Hebrews went into great detail about the Old Testament Sanctuary and it relationship to the heavenly and salvation. In what part of Hebrews does the writer nullify Exodus 30:10? I believe that to go down the rabbit warren of “fulfillment means to do away with”…that is already proven by quite a number of biblical scholars to be a false doctrine and its directly argued in the Sunday Worship debate…which attempts to throw out the 4th commandment…and again in direct contravention of two biblical doctrines:
Entering Christs rest
Hebrews 4: 1Therefore, while the promise of entering His rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be deemed to have fallen short of it.2For we also received the good news just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, since they did not share the faith of those who comprehended it.a
3Now we who have believed enter that rest. As for the others, it is just as God has said:
And yet His works have been finished since the foundation of the world. 4For somewhere He has spoken about the seventh day in this manner: “And on the seventh day God rested from all His works.”c5And again, as He says in the passage above: “They shall never enter My rest.”
6Since, then, it remains for some to enter His rest, and since those who formerly heard the good news did not enter because of their disobedience,7God again designated a certain day as “Today,” when a long time later He spoke through David as was just stated: “Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts.”d
8For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9There remains, then, a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10For whoever enters God’s rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from His.
[11]Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following the same pattern of disobedience.
revelation 14:12 patience of the saints are those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus
If you are correct, then we should all be offering annual sacrifices for sin – which is exactly what Hebrews says is no longer needed. Christ offered once for all time, which nullifies the need to keep offering annually.
I’m not going to try to answer a question that is based on false premises. Old Testament sacrifices didn’t atone for anything; they couldn’t – only Christ could make atonement.
I read a book by a well-known dispensationalist radio preacher urged upon me by a friend at church and I was aghast at the statement in it that blood sacrifices would be re-instituted in the millennium memorially looking back as the OT sacrifices are said to be looking ahead. That was more than a bit too bizarre and the book got closed at that point and was soon to be returned, if I recall correctly.
Caveat…I have not once made the claim that the sacrificial system should or does continue. That is antibiblical…the bible very clearly states that the O/T sacrificial system was the type/antitype parrallel with the N/T sacrifice of the Messiah…“Christ died once for all sin” Hebrews 9;28
28so also Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many; and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await Him.
Back to the 4th commandment and enterring into Christ rest…take a look at the cross referencing in your bible or concordance for Hebrews 4:1-11…wouldnt you know it…its Exodus 16:22-30 AND Genesis 2:1-3!
22On the sixth day, they gathered twice as much food—two omers per persone —and all the leaders of the congregation came and reported this to Moses. 23He told them, “This is what the LORD has said: ‘Tomorrow is to be a day of complete rest, a holy Sabbath to the LORD. So bake what you want to bake, and boil what you want to boil. Then set aside whatever remains and keep it until morning.’ ”
24So they set it aside until morning as Moses had commanded, and it did not smell or contain any maggots. 25“Eat it today,” Moses said, “because today is a Sabbath to the LORD. Today you will not find anything in the field. 26For six days you may gather, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, it will not be there.”
27Yet on the seventh day some of the people went out to gather, but they did not find anything. 28Then the LORD said to Moses, “How long will you refuse to keep My commandments and instructions? 29Understand that the LORD has given you the Sabbath; that is why on the sixth day He will give you bread for two days. On the seventh day, everyone must stay where he is; no one may leave his place.”
1Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. 2And by the seventh day God had finished the work He had been doing; so on that day He rested from all His work.a
3Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because on that day He rested from all the work of creation that He had accomplished.
The point is, if the Sabbath was done away with at the cross, and yet the writer in Hebrews, written about 30 years after Christ, is clearly telling us that the promise of entering Gods rest still stands…then who exactly gave us the right to engage in Sunday worship? Given the writer of the book of Hebrews is of Pauline theology, and Paul is considered generally to be the greatest (most significant contributor to Christian theology) of all the Apostles, the Apostles clearly did not believe in any such doctrine because here they are very much still following the promise of entering into Gods rest on the Sabbath. This means it was a critical doctrine of salvation because if we chose to enter into His rest, we are choosing to accept His promise demonstrated in Genesis Chapter 2!
So to summarise the point here…We are going to enter into Christ’s rest at the Second Coming…that is what Salvation is… entering Gods rest! So for those who do not believe that keeping the Sabbath is critical for Salvation, then you are sadly very very mistaken!
Those who know about and understand the doctrine of the Sabbath are expected to "enter the promise of Gods rest on the Sabbath as a celebration of creation and our future salvation.
That’s a stretch. A big stretch, and you know (or may not remember) that I am someone who thinks the fourth commandment has not been rescinded or revoked.
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