How do we “bend the curve” in the trend away from Christianity?

@Prode

The whole point of the BioLogos position is to accept some texts of the bible as figurative, symbolic … and even on the odd occasion - - erroneous!

Exodus 20:8-11New International Version (NIV)

Exodus 20:8-11
“8. Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God . . . 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."

You fixate on the idea that if the Bible says it is true, it must be true.

Jesus said the mustard seed was the smallest seed. It isn’t.

The Book of Job wrote about snow and hail being stored in the heavens above the firmament. It isn’t.

Genesis makes it pretty clear that there is an ocean above the firmament - - hence the blue sky. It isn’t.

Various parts of the Bible refers to falling and shooting stars as something smaller than the Earth … so they can crash right in front of you. They can’t.

The flood could have happened anywhere within -500 or +1000 years of when most YEC’s place it … because that would have put the flood right in the middle of Egyptian civilization … which pretty much only documents the regular flooding of the Nile. Ditto in Sumeria … except it’s the Euphrates and Tigris rivers flooding here and there.

The Bible is clearly in ignorance of the Egyptian presence and dominance in the Sinai, the Levant and southern Syria - - - from the time of the Hyksos Expulsion to 1130 BCE. This is a huge problem… because even during the Amarna period, Egyptian troops and messengers were criss-crossing the area … even up into the hill country where Jerusalem received and sent messages to the Father (Pharaoh) in Egypt.

The New Testament writers believed that the Old Testament predicted a New Testament period virgin birth … but that part of the Old Testament was referring to a pending birth 700 years prior to the time of Jesus.

Taking the Bible as inerrant is, pun intended, a Fundamental Error.

Readers should be aware that when @gbrooks9 mentions the “BioLogos position”, that may or may not represent what BioLogos actually thinks. George is not an official representative of BioLogos. I refer readers to our belief statement or Common Questions pages for our official positions.

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Sorry to say but your point is as clear as mud to me. How are you trying to use these texts to justify a belief in billions of years when the bible expressly short-circuits any notion of that?

The context of those passages really has no bearing on how long God took to create the heavens and the earth. Peter is talking specifically to those who question whether Jesus will ever return [and in fact by reading the little add-on he seems to be talking directly to those who believe in the uniformitarian paradigm of things going on exactly as they did before, i.e. the basis of evolution!].
Peter is addressing the patience of God in waiting for sinners to repent. God’s patience is not bound by human days or notion of time - to God it doesn’t matter whether he is waiting 1 day or a thousand years - such time is the same to Him. The passage [or the one in Psalms] does not solve the problem of Exodus 20:8-11 for you.
Even if you changed the six days into a thousand years you still fall terribly short of the required billions of years. By simply making a statement that God’s time is not our time you’re simply avoiding having to explain the very exact context presented in Exodus 20:8-11 [and Ex 31:17 too for that matter].

I’m simply pointing out that the claim that they have nothing whatsoever to do with creation is demonstrably untrue. Creation may not be the primary focus of these passages, but it is a subject that they discuss nonetheless. 2 Peter 3:4-5 and Psalm 90:2 in particular clearly refer to creation. In fact, both passages talk about creation in the same way – to relate it to judgment and the Second Coming of Christ.

That is correct. However, the implication of verse 8 is, “So what if the earth is billions of years old? God’s promises still stand.”

This is just pedantry and completely misses the point about God’s time not being the same as our time.

Look, here’s what it boils down to. The only alternative to billions of years is to claim that God created evidence for a long history of events that never happened (the omphalos hypothesis). You may think that 2 Peter 3:8 and Psalm 90:4 are pretty weak in terms of support for billions of years, but at least they are something. In support of omphalos, the Bible gives us nothing.

Actually, the definitive study of the genealogies in Genesis was done way back in 1890. You should check it out: Primeval Chronology by W.H. Green. A few of the highlights:

THE question of the possible reconciliation of the results
of scientific inquiry respecting the antiquity of man and
the age of the world with the Scripture chronology has
been long and earnestly debated. On the one hand, sci-
entists, deeming them irreconcilable, have been led to
distrust the divine authority of the Scriptures; and, on
the other hand, believers in the divine word have been
led to look upon the investigations of science with an un-
friendly eye, as though they were antagonistic to religious
faith. In my reply to Bishop Colenso in 1863, I had occa-
sion to examine the method and structure of the biblical
genealogies, and incidentally ventured the remark1 that
herein lay the solution of the whole matter. I said:
“There is an element of uncertainty in a computation of
time which rests upon genealogies, as the sacred chronol-
ogy so largely does. Who is to certify us that the ante-
diluvian and ante-Abrahamic genealogies have not been
condensed in the same manner as the post-Abrahamic?
. . . . Our current chronology is based upon the prima
facie impression of these genealogies. But if these
recently discovered indications of the antiquity of man,
over which scientific circles are now so excited, shall,
when carefully inspected and thoroughly weighed, demon-
strate all that any have imagined they might demonstrate,
what then? They will simply show that the popular
chronology is based upon a wrong interpretation, and that,
a select and partial register of ante-Abrahamic names has
been mistaken for a complete one.”

It can scarcely be necessary to adduce proof to one who
has even a superficial acquaintance with the genealogies of
the Bible, that these are frequently abbreviated by the
omission of unimportant names. In fact, abridgment is the
general rule…
In 1 Chronicles 26:24 we read in a list of
appointments made by King David (see 1 Chron. 24:3; 25:1;
26:26), that Shebuel,1 the son of Gershom, the son of Moses,
was ruler of the treasures; and again in 1 Chronicles 23:15, 16,
we find it written, “The sons of Moses were Gershom and
Eliezer. Of the sons of Gershom, Shebuel was the chief.” Now
it is absurd to suppose that the author of Chronicles was so
grossly ignorant as to suppose that the grandson of Moses could
be living in the reign of David, and appointed by him to a
responsible office. Again, in the same connection (1 Chron.
26:31), we read that “among the Hebronites was Jerijah the
chief;” and this Jerijah, or Jeriah (for the names are identical),
was, according to 23:19, the first of the sons of Hebron, and
Hebron was (v. 12) the son of Kohath, the son of Levi (v. 6).
So that if no contraction in the genealogical lists is allowed,
we have the great-grandson of Levi holding a prominent office
in the reign of David.
The genealogy of Ezra is recorded in the book which bears
his name; but we learn from another passage, in which the same
line of descent is given, that it has been abridged by the omission
of six consecutive names…
This disposition to abbreviate genealogies by the omis-
sion of whatever is unessential to the immediate purpose
of the writer is shown by still more remarkable reduc-
tions than those which we have been considering…
The genealogy of Moses and Aaron is thus stated in the
sixth chapter of Exodus: – …
There is abundant proof that this genealogy has been
condensed, as we have already seen that so many others
have been, by the dropping of some of the less important
names.
This is afforded, in the first place, by parallel genealo-
gies of the same period; as that of Bezaleel (I Chron. ii.
18-20), which records seven generations from Jacob; and
that of Joshua (I Chron. vii. 23-27), which records eleven.
Now it is scarcely conceivable that there should be
eleven links in the line of descent from Jacob to Joshua,
and only four from Jacob to Moses.
A still more convincing proof is yielded by Num. iii.
19, 27, 28, from which it appears that the four sons of Ko-
hath severally gave rise to the families of the Amramites,
the Izharites, the Hebronites, and the Uzzielites; and
that the number of the male members of these families of a
month old and upward was 8,600 one year after the Ex-
odus. So that, if no abridgment has taken place in the
genealogy, the grandfather of Moses had, in the lifetime
of the latter, 8,600 descendants of the male sex alone,
2,750 of them being between the ages of thirty and fifty
(Num. iv. 36)…
But do not the chronological statements introduced
into these genealogies oblige us to regard them as neces-
sarily continuous? Why should the author be so partic-
ular to state, in every case, with unfailing regularity, the
age of each patriarch at the birth of his son, unless it
was his design thus to construct a chronology of this
entire period, and to afford his readers the necessary ele-
ments for a computation of the interval from the creation
to the deluge and from the deluge to Abraham? And if
this was his design, he must of course have aimed to make
his list complete. The omission of even a single name
would create an error.
But are we really justified in supposing that the author
of these genealogies entertained such a purpose? It is a
noticeable fact that he never puts them to such a use him-

1890.] Primeval Chronology. 297

self. He nowhere sums these numbers, nor suggests
their summation. No chronological statement is deduced
from these genealogies, either by him or by any inspired
writer. There is no computation anywhere in Scripture
of the time that elapsed from the creation or from the
deluge, as there is from the descent into Egypt to the
Exodus (Ex. xii. 40), or from the Exodus to the building
of the temple (I Kings vi. 1). And if the numbers in these
genealogies are for the sake of constructing a chronology,
why are numbers introduced which have no possible rela-
tion to such a purpose? Why are we told how long each
patriarch lived after the birth of his son, and what was
the entire length of his life?..

For the answers to those questions, read the article. It is amazing that a conservative Biblical scholar, simply comparing Scripture to Scripture, could convincingly refute the idea that the genealogies of Genesis are useful for calculating the age of the Earth – and do it in 1890 – but we are still talking about it.

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This “interpreting the same evidence” rhetoric is unequivocally and objectively false.

The defining characteristic of evolutionary denialists is that they ignore/avoid/misrepresent most of the evidence.

Really? Then let’s have a discussion of twin nested hierarchies and their significance.

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Also endogenous retroviruses, radiometric dating of meteorites, cross-checks between lake varves, ice cores, tree rings, radiocarbon ages and known historical events, cross-checks between radiometric dating and direct GPS measurements of continental drift, oil exploration, videos of evolution happening in the lab, nylon eating bacteria, antibiotic resistance, distant starlight, and the total absurdity of accelerated nuclear decay.

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We are returning to Rome as a culture. This will ultimately result in persecution of the church. This will purify the church. A clear contrast between the church and Society will once again be present. Then what worked for the early church will work again. This is currently happening in China.

Unfortunately that means things have to get a lot worse before they get better. If we wish to avert this, we have to challenge the culture at its very core.