How do we “bend the curve” in the trend away from Christianity?

A reformed theologian gives his thoughts on Osteen here, and they may surprise you. It surprised me a bit.

@Eddie
Actually, I think it does speak to your point. Your description of liberal churches experiencing a drop in their membership while evangelical churches were growing was true in the past. However, as the chart on the first page of the Pew Forum’s data shows, evangelical churches have declined more slowly in the past 7 years, but they are declining just like mainline Protestant and Catholic churches. It is already happening to evangelical churches, and I don’t think you can attribute it to the fact that they suddenly became more liberal in the past 7 years. I also don’t think you can describe the drop in any of the branches of American Christianity as a “free fall,” but it certainly should alarm all of us that the number of people who claim affiliation with any brand of Christianity fell from 78% to 71% in such a short time (2007-14). If this trend continues unabated, many, many evangelical churches will stand half empty in a generation or two.

Forgive me, but I think you’ve been sold a bill of goods. I don’t exempt myself, because I bought the same line of reasoning from some of the same conservative leaders of the evangelical movement. The reason is that it sounds plausible. Yes, the mainline denominations were declining for a long time while evangelical denominations and non-denominational churches were growing. Why? As you asked: What keeps membership up and growing?

You focus on homosexual bishops, the new sexual morality, and lax morals in general as explanations for the drop in mainline denominations. The trend of membership losses started in the '60s. The ordination of homosexual bishops and arguments about same-sex marriage are of too recent vintage to have played a part in the overall trend of losses. (The Episcopal Church did not start losing membership in the 1960s because of a gay bishop ordained in 2003.) The sexual revolution, on the other hand, certainly could have been a factor, but I don’t think we can blame the losses in church membership entirely on that.

A 1993 article in First Things attempts to wrestle with the issue, although from a somewhat dated perspective, since evangelical churches were still experiencing growth at that time. Here’s a quick summary of the findings (italics mine):

"The first step toward identifying these special factors was the discovery, in the late 1970s, that the principal source of the decline was the tendency of many adolescents who had been confirmed in these denominations from the early 1960s on to drop out of church and not return. … To gain new insights into the reasons for the decline, the three of us decided to interview a national sample of baby boomers who had been confirmed in mainline Protestant churches during the 1960s. To simplify our task, we concentrated on a single denomination, the Presbyterian Church (USA)…

"Our findings cast doubt on most of the popular theories about the decline of mainline churches. We were mildly surprised to learn that participation in countercultural activities is only weakly correlated to church participation today. Involvement in the counterculture is associated with unorthodox theological views, as well as with liberal positions on controversial issues of sexuality, reproduction, and gender, but it is not a good predictor of church involvement itself. Similarly, the amount of formal education has no bearing on how active one is in church. The handful of confirmands in our sample who have earned Ph.D.'s tend to be irreligious, but exposure to a college education does not serve to explain mainline church decline. Our fundamentalists, for example, were as well educated as any of the other groups in the sample. Most of those who lost their faith, or who adopted unorthodox opinions, did so before, not after, going to college. College may not strengthen faith, but for most baby boomers it did not initiate doubt.

"When we asked our sample of confirmands why they had dropped out of church we found virtually no support either for the theory that the church has become “socially irrelevant” or for the theory that church decline represents a protest against the radical agenda of denominational elites.

"In our study, the single best predictor of church participation turned out to be belief-orthodox Christian belief, and especially the teaching that a person can be saved only through Jesus Christ. Virtually all our baby boomers who believe this are active members of a church. Among those who do not believe it, some are active in varying degrees; a great many are not. Ninety-five percent of the drop-outs who describe themselves as religious do not believe it. And amazingly enough, fully 68 percent of those who are still active Presbyterians don’t believe it either.… But we also discovered a pattern in the theological views of people who, on the Gallup-style theological questions, seemed to pick and choose their responses in unorthodox ways. We have named this pattern the theology of lay liberalism. It is “liberal” because its defining characteristic is the rejection of the view that Christianity is the only religion with a valid claim to truth. It is “lay” because it does not reflect any of the theological systems contained in the writings or seminary lectures of today’s post-orthodox Christian intellectuals. Our interviewees did not speak the language of liberation theology, feminist theology, or the theology of Presbyterian General Assembly pronouncements. Lay liberalism does borrow from the views of certain dead intellectuals, but it is largely a homemade product, a kind of modern-age folk religion…

"From our interviews, we formed the firm impression that for many lay liberals the principal value of churches is that they support basic morality. This may be one reason why 96 percent of the “religious” unchurched and even 71 percent of the agnostics want their children to have a religious education. Lay liberals do not care what theological views their children embrace or whether they attend church when they grow up, but they do want them to become “good people.”

“What did the Presbyterian Church itself contribute to the spiritual formation of these baby boomers? For some, it contributed a great deal, especially if their parents were highly committed Christians themselves. But for many others, Sunday School, worship services, confirmation classes, and youth programs did not produce a commitment sufficiently strong to sustain itself in a milieu of family and peers in which religion was rarely mentioned. To be effective, even the best-conceived program of religious education needs the reinforcement of a rich discursive follow-up in a circle of strong believers. Two or three hours a week of “God talk” is hardly enough.”

According to the data, the single biggest predictor of remaining within the church is belief that Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life. People don’t leave the faith because the churches don’t preach strong morality; they leave because they no longer believe in Jesus as the only savior.

And if the problem appeared with the Baby Boomers interviewed 23 years ago, it has only worsened with the Millennials today. The Pew Forum attributes the recent trend of across-the-board decline to generational replacement:

“One of the most important factors in the declining share of Christians and the growth of the “nones” is generational replacement. As the Millennial generation enters adulthood, its members display much lower levels of religious affiliation, including less connection with Christian churches, than older generations. Fully 36% of young Millennials (those between the ages of 18 and 24) are religiously unaffiliated, as are 34% of older Millennials (ages 25-33). And fewer than six-in-ten Millennials identify with any branch of Christianity, compared with seven-in-ten or more among older generations, including Baby Boomers and Gen-Xers. Just 16% of Millennials are Catholic, and only 11% identify with mainline Protestantism. Roughly one-in-five are evangelical Protestants.”

Thanks for sharing. Lots of good info, and relates to the Biologos mission.

You bet! I suppose I should plug my friend James Edwards’ book, Is Jesus the Only Savior? Just for you, @SuperBigV ! Haha. Glad to see you stuck around.

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@Eddie
Not so much. There are a couple of things I would quibble with, but quibbles are quibbles, not overall disagreement.

A couple of observations that I would add:

I was actually surprised by the reason that the survey turned up, but it’s one of those things that seem obvious once it’s pointed out. People leave because they are not committed to Christ, and most of the survey respondents made that decision before they even graduated high school. I don’t know how much time you’ve spent in church youth groups lately, but both of my kids are college-aged, and I taught middle school and high school for many years, and my impression from talking to them is that youth groups today spend inordinate amounts of time on purity and abstinence and the church’s teaching on sex. Perhaps the lesson to be learned for youth group leaders (and senior ministers who oversee their teaching) is to focus on the basics of the Gospel; let’s not major in the minors.

I also thought it was worth noting the important role that “highly committed” parents play, and that two or three hours a week of religious education at church functions was not sufficient in itself to generate a sustainable faith commitment. On the other hand, none of us gets to choose our parents, and many young women who have had poor (or absent) fathers find it psychologically very difficult to relate to God as “Our Father.” Again, these are issues that youth group leaders need to consider. How do we minister to teenagers who never hear Jesus mentioned outside church? How do we minister to teenagers whose parents speak of Christ, but do not model him at all in their behavior? I’m not sure there are good answers to these questions.

Finally (do I hear cheers?), the numbers from the Pew Forum and the First Things article do, as you say, show across-the-board growth until the 1960s, even in mainline denominations. One thing not mentioned as a contributing factor to the subsequent decline in mainline Protestant denominations is simple demographics. Remember that with forced school integration came “white flight” to the suburbs. The inner city neighborhoods that whites vacated were filled with black and Hispanic populations. Where did they go to church? Not to the Methodist or Episcopal church down the street, whose white members were moving away. They went to historically black denominations and the Catholic church. The mainline denominations did not make church planting in the suburbs a priority, nor did they (until just recently) reach out to their new constituencies. This explains a lot of what happened, but not all.

I also think that there was a theological reason why the mainline denominations failed to hold onto the members that they had. The seminaries that produce the ministers for those denominations began to be dominated by theological liberals (please do not confuse that with political liberals) in the 1920s. This was the great fundamentalist controversy, and it led to most conservative theologians at those seminaries abandoning ship and starting new conservative seminaries. Setting aside fine definitions, liberal theology certainly does not teach the divinity of Christ, or that Christ is the only way, or that the Bible is the word of God, and ministers trained in such seminaries are unlikely to emphasize these things. However, the results of such a revolution in the seminaries doesn’t show up for 40 years, until the 1960s.
Why? Because it took about that long for the “old guard” to retire and be replaced.

That’s my story, and I’m sticking to it!

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Herein lies the rub, me thinks. Pandering to the evolutionary idea of origins is bowing down to a false God. Christianity is not anti-science, it’s most certainly anti-evolutionary. The evolutionary dogma is the atheistic evangelism to free people from their “slavery” to God. No other religion will be tolerated in schools and universities. Unless one subscribes to the religion of Evolution. It’s easy to see why people are leaving Christianity - they believe the lie of evolution. They choose to believe in the age of rocks instead of believing in the Rock of Ages. It’s as simple as that.
In my opinion - which goes against the grain of this whole website - is that evolution is not scientifically possible, i.e. the idea of a single cellular first live changing over vast periods of time into the complex life forms we see today. Just doesn’t cut it given that replication is one of the first requirements of life. It’s either that or you’re gone… To say that “God did it” is false, because He makes it clear that He created everything in six days (Exodus 20:8-11) and evolution has no part of that. Only if you already buy into the evolutionary story do you find it necessary to invent all kinds of excuses to
reject a plain straightforward reading of the word of God.
Like I said - people are leaving Christianity and forming their own religions because they choose to believe in the age of rocks instead of the Rock of Ages. Period.

And some would say the problem is that people are looking for answers in Genesis rather than answers in Jesus. We really need to integrate all truth into our lives and faith.

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Hi Prode,

Unfortunately it is not as simple as that. You see there’s something called “evidence.” The fact remains that the earth contains vast swathes of very robust and unambiguous evidence for 4.5 billion years of history. Similarly, both the fossil record and genetic comparisons contain similarly strong and unambiguous evidence for common ancestry between humans, chimpanzees and other animals. It isn’t realistic to claim that this evidence is based on atheistically motivated misunderstandings either, when much of it comes from commercial applications such as oil exploration or medical research. Geologists are under a lot of economic pressure to produce results that are correct, not results that are ideologically convenient.

Whether we accept or reject the evidence, as Christians we must be honest in how we approach it. It is unwise and reckless to deny its existence, or to try and portray it as being weaker or more ambiguous than it really is. These are matters that can be fact-checked and potentially shown to be incorrect. Herein lies the rub: people aren’t leaving Christianity because they have been taught about evolution, but because they have been confronted with indisputable evidence that their pastors, teachers, parents, or other people in a position of trust, were teaching them things about it that were demonstrably untrue. Such a thing is a breach of trust, and it can be utterly toxic to faith.

On the other hand, there is evidence that when Christian students are taught about these things honestly, by responsible pastors and authority figures in their churches and schools, it actually strengthens their faith.

Beyond that, how we respond to the evidence is a matter of debate. Some people just say, “Well God could easily have done it in just six 24 hour solar days anyway,” but that would mean that at some point, He must have created evidence for 4.5 billion years of history that never happened. Instead, the sensible approach is to ask ourselves whether we have understood Genesis 1 correctly in the first place. This may mean that we need to ask questions about its genre, or about its historical context, or about who wrote it and when, or about what figures of speech were used and why. This isn’t denying the authority of the Bible; on the contrary, it’s taking heed to things that it is saying that a strict literal reading might have overlooked.

You’ve probably heard it said before, and you’re probably sick of hearing it said, that the Bible is not a scientific textbook. But let’s just do a thought experiment here – what if it were? What if Genesis 1 had been written with the intention of explaining scientific facts about the size and age of the universe to ancient Israel? Here’s what would have happened: they wouldn’t have understood it, it would have completely confused them, they wouldn’t have taken it seriously, and the message that it actually seeks to address would have been at best diluted, and at worst completely lost.

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@Prode

The God of Truth knows how to work with the truth of the Age of Rocks.

Any world view that has to turn this truth into a lie has no legitimate authority over humanity.

We all have the same evidence. How we choose to interpret it depends on our assumptions regarding the initial conditions of the existence for that evidence.
The bible is a historical book containing statements which can be examined scientifically, in the same way that you can examine the statement that a nuclear bomb was dropped on Nagasaki. Except for one itsy, bitsy, tiny little detail: No one can go back into history to witness the actual origin of the heavens and the earth. There is no documentation that covers that aspect. Which leaves us having to make assumptions and interpret the evidence based on those assumptions.

You have evidence, so do I. In fact it’s exactly the same evidence. I choose to go with what the bible clearly says about our origins, you choose to accept the atheistic worldview that God had nothing to do with it. The only difference is that you claim that “God did it by setting it in motion”. You then come with that background firmly established as the truth and then have to reinterpret the bible in the light of what you believe is true, so-called scientific evidence.

We’ll never agree on this issue since we’re approaching it from diametrically opposite directions - I take the bible as the word of God as my authority regarding our origins, you take the word of the atheist as your authority regarding our origins. It’s as simple as that. Science really has a very little role to play there since any story pertaining to pre–history is fundamentally un-scientific according to the measures of a strict scientific method - no observation, no verification, impossible to falsify and as malleable as you please.
I’m just pointing it out, once again, as so many others have done before me.

As for how you reinterpret the word of God, which you claim to believe, just look at what P Enns and others have done to Exodus 20:8-11.

Perhaps you can give us your version of what those verses represent?

Very strong statement there, George.
You realize of course that the very word of God completely disagrees with your age of Rocks - just read Exodus 20:8-11. So you’re absolutely, dogmatically asserting that the One who inspired the word of God has utterly zero authority over humanity.
Very interesting comment indeed.

Strangely, the israelites needed no prompting to apostatize, they simply went off on their own volition. So much for them not having lost the word of God. In similar fashion, modern society have been beguiled by the “scientific” interpretations of the evidence and have gone off to worship at the altar of the atheistic evolutionary paradigm. No one forces anyone to do that, they are simply beguiled by the so-called “truth” of our origins, having been hoodwinked by the clamor of popular media and visibility of scientists who proclaim the good news of the age of rocks.

Prode, with all due respect, I don’t know if you realise this, but the guidelines of this forum clearly lay down some definitions of “gracious dialogue” which include the following:

Assuming legitimate Christian faith on the part of other commenters, unless they identify otherwise.

At no point have I ever self-identified as an atheist, nor have I ever claimed that God had nothing to do with it.

For what it’s worth, the claim that an ancient earth is an atheistic worldview is demonstrably untrue. Case in point: oil exploration. Geologists have to determine both the age and the thermal history of the rock strata in order to ensure that the oil deposits will be of a usable quality. Too young, or too cool, and they’re “premature” – still solid and impossible to get out of the ground. Too old, or too warm, and they’re “postmature” – uneconomical at best, and at worst baked into complete oblivion. They are under strong financial pressures to deliver results that are correct, not results that support their worldview. There is no room whatsoever for any kind of presuppositions, atheistic or otherwise, in oil exploration.

(For a more detailed explanation of this, see the article “Can Young-Earth Creationists Find Oil?” on the Age of Rocks blog. The author is a Christian geochronologist.)

As far as Exodus 20:8-11 is concerned, 2 Peter 3:8 and Psalm 90:4 say that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years are as a day. In other words, God’s days are not the same as our days. Placing young age constraints on the age of the earth quite clearly goes beyond what the Bible demands.

Ah, the good old “were you there?” argument. It’s true that you can’t go back into history to witness the creation of the heavens and the earth. But there’s one other, itsy, bitsy, tiny little detail: you can cross-check different studies to see whether they give the same results. It’s the whole principle of everything being established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

In this case, there are hundreds of thousands of witnesses. Hundreds of thousands of studies from independent disciplines, whose assumptions are independent of each other, that provide a very close agreement for ages far in excess of six thousand years. On top of that, scientists can make other testable predictions to check whether their assumptions are valid or not. Again, there are vast numbers of such tests.

In any case, the “were you there?” argument would falsify the entire field of forensic science if it had any merit. If you could argue it convincingly, you would make a fortune as an expert witness in criminal defence cases.

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@Prode

I prefer this text from Exodus 13:17

“And it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God led them not through the way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, Lest peradventure the people repent when they see war, and they return to Egypt…”

This passage explicitly tells us that at the time of Exodus, the Philistines had entered their final bellicose phase against the Egyptians. That would be around or after 1130 BCE.

Genesis places Abraham in the land of the Philistines 800 years too early.
And if Solomon’s reign starts around 970 BCE, then there are no more than 160 years
between Exodus and Solomon. If we subtract 40 years from the sojourn/pause in Sinai
and 40 years from King David’s reign, we are left with just 80 years to cover all the events
of Joshua and Judges!

Let me know if your numbers come out differently …

The word “like” doesn’t stand in the way to interpret those verses as you’d, well, like, of course…
Perhaps the context doesn’t bother you either?

So yo prefer to ignore what the text of Exodus 20:8-11 clearly states and choose to follow your own way?

Some translations say “like,” some say “as.” It doesn’t make any difference. My point still stands.

One thing to note about the context of both passages is that, contrary to what some YEC articles claim, both of them do talk about creation. See 2 Peter 3:4-5 and Psalm 90:2.

Oh, and one other thing. Psalm 90 was written by Moses – the same author as Exodus 20:8-11.

In the future, please try to avoid telling other people what they think and believe or assigning motivations to other people’s thoughts and beliefs. It thwarts gracious dialogue. You don’t actually know what other people think and believe or what motivates them until you ask.

Amen, amen and amen! This is by far the biggest problem with YEC in general. It seems determined to portray anyone who disagrees with it as disciples of Richard Dawkins.

It’s this attitude, more than anything else, that’s driving young people away from Christianity in general. They see that the evidence for an ancient earth is far, far stronger and far, far more unambiguous than what they’ve been taught, and they don’t know who they can to turn to for advice and support on how to make sense of it all without being denounced as compromisers or otherwise selling out.