You might like some of the work John Sanders has done synthesizing metaphor studies with theology, particularly for the atonement. I’m kind of obsessed with it at the moment, but it’s super interesting stuff.
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Not sure I like that review too much. Themelios has a better one;
This one is also really good;
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Of course, but Isaiah 53 is a prophesy of Christ.
In the lectionary, Isaiah 53 is read on Good Friday.
In Handel’s Messiah, Isaiah 53 is treated as a prophesy.
And you know who else thinks it’s a prophesy?
Matthew! Remember him? He wrote one of the gospels.
Matthew 8:14-17
14 When Jesus came into Peter’s house, he saw Peter’s mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever. 15 He touched her hand and the fever left her, and she got up and began to wait on him.
16 When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick.17 This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah:
“He took up our infirmities
and bore our diseases.”[b]
Matthew is referring to Isaiah 53 verse 4.
Except that it’s true. It’s in both the OT and the NT. See my previous posts.
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In my understanding Hell is not the Lake of Fire which will take place at the End Times but is a place of smoke and darkness but mostly a place that is separated from the presence of God and thus the torment is from the agony of not being near God and the anguish of not making the choice to follow God. The Lake of Fire which is the 2nd Death is true to what it says but in my opinion the Lake of Fire will not mostly be the burning of the fire but be the knowledge that they are forever away from the presence and glory of God. God doesn’t send people to Hell, people send themselves to it. Hell is the path for all but God offers a way out of it and that is through Jesus Christ.
The ideas sound Eastern Orthodox… and then there is that picture…
I think this move away from hell as scary and painful scenery is in the right direction. Far more significant it seems to me is the inhabitants, for they more than anything else are what make a place wonderful or unbearable.
As for the connection between hell and the separation from God, I agree totally. But I think some explanation is required, because most people are likely see this as only being torturous to religious fanatics and thus conclude that the so called heaven is a place full of self-righteous stuffed shirts they would not want to be caught dead in.
The basic problem I see it is that fact that it can be little difficult to imagine that an eternal existence can even be bearable let alone worthwhile. Many who imagine scenarios where someone lives forever comes to the conclusion that boredom can become excruciating. But then you might realize that there is something about God that could change this. He is infinite. There is no end to what He can give to those who are willing to receive. This is the promise I see in eternal life. Not merely an eternal existence. But a relationship with an infinite source of the things that make existence worthwhile.
This is likely to inspire laughter more than anything else with those who don’t believe in God. Indeed they are likely to believe that what you are describing is the much better place. But I have a perspective that makes hell something far more frightening.
The crux of it is that heaven and hell are not about rewards and punishment for sin. That is the most prevalent misunderstanding. Another misunderstanding which in some ways even worse is the idea that salvation is a way of avoiding the consequences of what you do. It is not so. God will render to EVERYONE according to his works (Romans 2:6). There is no escape from the consequences of what we do. However, you might notice that the consequences can be very different depending on how you deal with them. Accepting the responsibility and repairing the damage is very different consequences from what happens when you run from them, because they dominate your life (or afterlife) and the damage grows without end. That is the most pernicious nature of sin, is that it multiplies and grows like a degenerative disease eroding piece by piece everything of value within you including your freedom of will until there is nothing left worth saving. It is indeed a bit like you are in an incinerator which is slowly converting you to nothing but ashes.
I go one step further to say that they create hell themselves as well. You see, the whole reason I even believe in hell is because I see it the world and it is always something which people have created.
I have often compared it to the law of gravity – call it the law of sin. We all may have very different trajectories depending on various advantages in life, but our destination remains the same because of the inescapable fact: have gravity will fall – or in this case, have sin and down we go eventually. The only hope is if God reaches down to grab us, and we cling to His hand with everything we have.
Jesus told Christians not to judge others. Paul told us not to repay evil with evil, but to allow God to punish those who deserve punishment.
Our job as Christians is not assign people to heaven or hell, however if we are confident that someone knows Jesus as their Savior we are confident that that person is going to be with God.
However if we see danger signs that things are not right with their lives, we should warn them that they are subject to judgement, not be us, but by God. God is not mocked. You reap what you sow.
I would love to preach to the President, because he should know what the price is for his lies and arrogance. The problem might be for some of his followers who should know better, but do not. God is able to read the heart and we trust God to do what is just and right, and not judge as we would judge,
I don’t , it’s not my place to judge another man’s heart .
That is good. So you know that you are not asked by God to tell people if they are saved or not. But we do need to let people know what they need to do to be saved. The fact is that we believe that we can know that we have a saving relationship with Jesus, that we cannot lose.
The flip side of this is that if some people are saved from sin, others are not. What happened to them after death? If they go to heaven, if heaven i9s just like death with the sheep being hurt by the goats, then what good is eternal life. Heaven is for the righteous where they can relax without fear of sin.
That would mean that hell is the place of the unrighteous, where they are free to so their thing also. This would seem to me to be suffering from mental and spiritual pain. Physical pain is gone because everyone is dead.
Conceivably people who go to hell because they choose sin over righteousness might get tired of trying to hurt of others and turn to Jesus. On the other hand eternity in hell is not a measure of time, because time does not exist there. It is a state of being.
Is it fair to assign to heaven if 1) people do not deserve it, and 2) people have demonstrated that they do not want to live in peace and joy with Gods and others. If some whites do not want to live with blacks on earth, how is it loving to compel them do so in heaven?
Our job as humans is to live right on earth. We are to allow God to make the decision as to who is saved and who is not. That is not our job and honestly I know that I am not able to make that time of decision. If God is God and we trust God, then there should be on problem.
Clearly non-believers do not believe in God. They do not think that they should go to hell just because they do not believe in God, and that is the case. Jesus said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. He is the sure Way to goodness, but God does provide a way for those who do live right even though they are not . If non-believers what to take a chance on finding that way on their own, Good Luck.
The idea of human souls spending eternity conciously suffering in hell conflicts a merciful loving father ,and further the gift of eternal life becomes to no effect ( eternal either way ) …
It is exactly this question that drove me to leave the Catholic Church at the age of 14. They cannot tell me why a Good God would allow eternal suffering. After searching for 45 years, I still find no modern Christian sect that can answer this question logically.
I came to this forum because I discovered that the founders of science and philosophy had a logical, reasonable explanation to suffering and Hell. Few today seem to want to accept their conclusion, which was core Christian reacting until 543 AD. The theory of the apocatastasis says that we were all cast into Hell after the Fall and that Jesus has has opened the gates to Heaven to all all the Fallen to reconcile with God and return home. Eventually, all will be saved and there is no eternal suffering, just nearly infinitely long.
I obviously resonate with this concern too, given things I’ve already written in other threads. Indeed, with regard to what is now taken to be a traditional concept of hell, it isn’t even that this “good” god allows suffering, but even presides over it in such a spirit of infinite vengeance as to make even the worst human parents more righteous by comparison.
And I suggest that this is a good thing [that you haven’t found any sect to explain this].
If you had, then perhaps the proper response is to run away from that sect as far as possible. The answer to it won’t be finding (or creating) some new sect, but to delve into the gospels (from whatever sect or system you already hale from), and to come to the feet of Christ who is our final and most authoritative revelation of God’s character, to learn of that Character straight from Him. I think you and I have a lot of agreement on that, Shawn. Where I continue to part ways with you is that you seem to want to insert a lot of “other stuff” like new and strange theological systems and apocryphal ideas which are likely unnecessary distractions at best and unscriptural falsehoods at worst. The answer to sects with their old contrived, elaborate theological systems is not to create yet another new one, but to let redemption shine out into the cobwebs of every already existing farthest corner.
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This is what I try to do with my “strange stuff” as you call it. The Luther Bible is called “Hoffnung für Alle” Hope for All. All of my posts are an attempt to show that redemption is for ALL, without exception. But you and many others are not yet willing to see the Love of God is equal for all.
What have I written that would lead you to this conclusion about me? Because the conviction that God’s love is indeed for all is one that I cling to, and defend - even if I am imperfect and hypocritical in living it out. Of all your strange stuff, this is the kernel that you have, the treasure to bring out and show.
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Hi Ryan,
It’s always been a sticky wicket. And I would just start by simply saying there are some things about which it’s ok to say we just don’t understand.
Works like Dante prompt powerful images but they are not inspired texts and shouldn’t be co-mingled with our understanding of what the Bible actually says about hell. Nor is it likewise a safe gambit to try and explain away an idea through rationalism just because we don’t comprehend it. It’s enough to know it exists and that temporary or not, it’s not a state anyone wishes to be in.
While it’s tempting to get into discussions with non-believing people, I recommend not trying to justify it. The unbelieving mind does not receive the things of God anyway. Nobody’s going to be scared into eternal life. The Gospel message is that all the wrath of God was poured out upon Christ at the Cross so that nobody would have to die. He was punished in our place so we wouldn’t have to.
Now my personal way of holding the idea of a loving merciful God in tension with a just judge is that ultimately God is bringing mortal creatures into eternal relationship with himself. He is described as an “all consuming fire” by nature in the Scriptures. By nature, I’m made of combustible material and unless I’m given a new nature, when a holy righteous all-consuming fire comes close I’m going to go up in flames. But He has clothed us in the very righteousness of Christ, therefore He can embrace us as His loved children. God by nature is eternal. He cannot not be. So whatever state we are in when we enter that eternal embrace determines the outcome. Will we know Him according to His mercy or according to His justice? It all depends upon being covered in Christ. I think that’s the thing to focus on.
Perhaps annihilation is true. But as we have no promise in Scripture that that is the case, it’s not a risk I’m willing to take.
Blessings!
Dear Mervin,
I know that you have a loving heart and are leaning the direction of universalism, but I have not seen you admit it yet or did I miss that? Sorry if I did.
Best Wishes, Shawn
Thank you for your confidence in my heart state! May I eventually be able (with God’s help) to live up to that.
You probably didn’t miss anything as I don’t generally just plop myself down by declaration into somebody’s neat category (especially when said category has so many flavors - many or all of which are written off by heretical by traditionalists). So I force people to actually read for the details and so hopefully be able to draw more accurate conclusions.
But yes - my current understandings of scriptures now do lead me toward a sort of universalism. I.e. I do believe that we all will be saved … eventually. [Note -this should not be confused with the “many roads to heaven” kinds of universalisms - I’m not suggesting there is salvation apart from Christ.] Perhaps for many of us it may take a seeming-eternity of hell to get us there. But in the end, every knee will bow and every tongue will confess. I’m pretty sure that passage didn’t include any lists of exceptions, Calvinist and other traditionalist protestations notwithstanding.
[It’s both bad news and yet ultimately great news at the same time, isn’t it! Bad news for those who wanted the simpler “meal-deal” where all I have to do is make the right noises in my throat, and suddenly I’m off the hook for all my sins and never have to even worry about making anything right just so long as I’m appropriately penitent and willing to use the “get out of jail free card” that we’re supposed to have courtesy of Christ. -So, definitely not good news for those who prefer a less inconvenient, culturally more comfortable kind of Christianity. But it is great news for those who agonized about the possibility that they will be tortured forever under the wrathful eye of a kind of vengeance-god. Some want that vengeance-god, but never for themselves - they always want that for their enemies, showing that they themselves are not yet truly fitted for the kingdom that has Christ as its King. So for those who like the T-shirt declaring: “smile, there is no hell” - we can only help them see that this is sort of like telling a filthy person caked in dirt and stench: “smile - there is no possible way to bathe or clean you!” A little boy might be excited about that prospect of “no baths” for a few days, but the grownups know better.]
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The question is not whether God’s Love is equal for all. The question is whether all will submit to God’s Will to love one another. If not, there is no place for them in heaven.
If you say that everyone will submit, then you are saying that everyone has no choice, but to accept God’s forgiveness and to live for others and not just for themselves. Lucifer has had a long time to submit, but he has not. I really do not know why he would today or tomorrow, when he did not yesterday. So again it is not up to God, it is up to all moral beings to make that choice for themselves. See Mt 25:31-46.
So here’s another reason I hesitate to declare “I’m a ____” in such stark terms. Because here too, among many points, my alleged “universalism” falters. Regarding the ultimate fates of devils and angels, I am happily agnostic as it’s none of my concern, and I simply don’t know. When I speak of God searching out his lost sheep, I mean humanity - not other spiritual principalities and powers. I suppose that those too will not ultimately be exempted from the lordship of Christ, but I happily leave such concern to others (like Shawn who no doubt would be happy to argue details about archangels and spirits with you, Roger). But for myself, I see all that as pointless speculation [at best] since it has no bearing on my call to faithful obedience and service to neighbor and God.
Do I have a choice in math class when my teacher insists that 2+2=4; but I really want it to equal 5 instead? My teacher may tell me I’m free to continue thinking that, but I’ll continue to be wrong for as long as I do. Is that brutish and intolerant fact an affront to my freedom? Maybe I can spend a lifetime insisting it equals five. But truth is always there waiting for me and unwilling to move even one millimeter toward my falsehood to placate my stubbornness … and will happily wait to eternity if necessary. “Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar…” So, my freedom is intact, and I can freely choose to stay out in the cold [or “in the fire” I guess for our purposes here] for as long as it takes. But angels will rejoice when the lost sinner finally submits, and comes home to the truth.
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Right–and it’s more loving than that, even, isn’t it? The sort of thing that God insists on correcting is calculated for our moral health-- that we are not our own; God is God; and that we have a duty to all mankind, and not to ourselves only (“Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind; and love your neighbor as yourself”). It’s only that way that we will truly be happy, mature and more like God.
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Dear Roger, I was hoping that this forum would have the perspective to see the problem of the Prodigal Son. For more that 13.8 billion years, Lucifer had reigned over the Fallen with no interference from God. 2,000 years ago, Jesus and Michael’s army invaded Lucifer’s realm and Jesus conquered him. It was only after passing final judgement on the world, that the fallen could free leave Lucifer’s realm. So, it relation, it is has been a very short time that Lucifer has had to contemplate his diminishing position.
He did not submit when Jesus defeated him in battle at Easter. He did not summit when he watched a portion of his followers leave with Jesus. Every day Lucifer loses followers to Jesus, but he still has billions of trillions of followers true to him, so the incentive is not great yet. When Lucifer is finally alone in Hell, then he will have a decision to make. I think he has about 3 billion years before he comes to his senses, unless he becomes enlightened before he is finally alone.
Best Wishes, Shawn