Heavens Declaring the Glory of God verses the Bible Describing God

I thnk you cab take the analogy of parent too far.

The fact is that the principles behind Christianity are not unique and reallyy should not be needed spelling out.

What I am more concerned about is the insistance that those principles can only be found in Christians. In truth, there are many who proffess Christianity but fail to live by its (God’s) principles, and the converse is true. There are many who live by those principles but who are neither Christian or in any way theistic.

But they are still shunned or condemned for not being Christian.

Richard

2 posts were split to a new topic: Political discussion

I don’t think its an analogy - more like the other way around. People sometimes have children for all sorts of selfish reasons. But the purest and best example of what parenting should be is found in God, for in that case there is no selfish reason. It is all about God who is everything, has everything, and needs nothing – so it is only about giving of that abundance to others.

There is also, of course, a considerable difference in difficulty and responsibility. For human parents the ability is simply given to them without knowing how it works or what it means. God started from scratch, having to figure it all out, and I very much think creating the universe was a necessary part of it. We come with all the machinery to start a child very much different from ourselves with a womb in which it can grow until it is ready to live in our world together with us.

While that was my starting point. I knew for a fact that God wasn’t required for morality because I built my own morality at the age of 13 from the principles in psychology. Furthermore I reject the notion that morality is a uniquely human thing – instead I think it is implicit in any community organism.

It certainly isn’t supported by the Bible either. Romans 2 makes that clear.

This is a problem in any community dominated by a single philosophy or worldview.

A methodology of deriving an ethical decision from Nature is illustrated by St Paul in Romans 1:26-27. Here he accuses both women and men of exchanging natural functioning for unnnatural, and it is clear from this case that both “natural” and “unnatural” have ethical value. The irony here is that our modern understanding of Nature has differed from Paul’s understanding of Nature. So when we adopt the same methodology, we end up with opposite conclusions.

In summary, there are three things which appear to be determined by Nature in human beings: sexual orientation, sexual structure, and sexual identity.

In regard to sexual orientation, approximately 2% of a human population appear to be exclusively homosexual in orientation, 18% bi-sexual, and 80% exclusively heterosexual. While the determination of sexual orientation appears to have continuity with the animal kingdom, its determination as natural is not determined by that continuity, but by its occurrence in humans.

Sexual structure in humans is also determined by Nature. When a child is born we might expect it to be called out, “It’s a boy! It’a a girl!”. But sometimes it is not so clear. Children can be born with confused genitalia and obviously, they have no say in it.

Sexual identity also appears to be biologically determined. The problems occur when someone with the sexual structure of one human gender appears to have a discordant sense of sexual identity. This can be very tricky. So let’s not get caught up arguing about the third case so much that it blinds us to understanding the situation of the previous two.

With regard to ethical choices we make in the light of Nature, we are not thinking about birdnests, but about what Nature determines for humans.

It can be seen from even Scripture, that Sola Scriptura does not hold up, as illustrated by Romans 1. Sola Scripture may have been the war cry of Martin Luther, but it becomes obvious that Luther’s doctrine was simply setting his interpretation of Scripture against the Roman Patriarchy’s interpretation of Scripture.

In retrospect, Luther was simply a child of his time. His emphasis on salvation by grace through faith was and is certainly true, but it does not cover the fullness of the Christian Faith. Even in those Scriptures, the apostle reached out to Nature. Furthermore, the Christian Faith does not replace one form of legalism with another form of legalism, but relies on the Holy Spirit to lead us into new insights in the light of science. Unfortunately, this moves us into another situation of difficulty.

Christian ethics proceed from the Cross, not nature.

That’s the interesting thing about Paul’s use of πρωτότοκος (pro-TOH-toh-kos) in Colossians: with the philosophical meaning, it tells us that everything that exists was shaped by Christ’s essence/character, but we are left being able to look at and examine anything in Creation yet be unable to have much of a clue about how any of it shows anything about His character.
I am reminded of a comment I made in a course I took at a (university accredited) Christian study center when the topic was theology from above versus theology from below: theology from below generates more questions than content (except for a frequent “Wow”).

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A bunch of us in grad school had that as a banner on our walls.
A couple of professors put Eccles. 12:12b on the head of the course syllabi without comment.

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I think Paul is a little too obsessed with judgement, or at least what amounts to fina judgement… It produces the attitude prevalent here about the imediacy of correct behaviour… jesus made it clear that being a Christian for 10 years or 10 seconds makes n difference, so we cannot prempt God’s judgement to the here and now. e all change with age,and the average age of congregations is over 60. DIsmissing the world in the here and now would seem be jumping the gun.

Of course Romans 2 echoes Christ’s warning about casting any soert of judement. Of course that makes witnessing a nd the Great Commision pproblematic.

Richard

What Nature might tell us is that we are all humans, no matter what is our sexual orientation, disabilities, health or whatever. From a theological viewpoint, this supports the interpretation that we should respect all humans equally, regardless of their talents, profession, ethnic background, sexual orientation, or other personal features.

The value and the acts of humans are not the same; we should recognize and respect the value of an individual even when we do not agree with his/her acts. I admit that I do not know why the biblical scriptures do not accept homosexual acts but I do note that both in the OT (Leviticus, if I remember correctly) and in a letter of Paul (Romans) there is a very clear rejection and condemnation of such acts (but note that the scriptures do not condemn people who have homosexual orientation, only homosexual acts!). Perhaps it had something to do with the focus of sexuality: the focus seemed to be on reproduction and the orderly structure of societies - homosexual pairs do not produce offspring without a third wheel. When the common good of the society is in conflict with individual freedom (‘my way’) and strive towards personal happiness, the biblical scriptures speak for the common good of the tribe and society. In that sense, biblical scriptures are not a product or supporter of modern western societies where individualism and the freedom to strive towards personal satisfaction play central roles.

This is an issue that can provoke strong feelings and strong words. Therefore, it is perhaps not wise to start a discussion about what is right and what is wrong regarding homosexual orientation. I just wanted to make general comments that are not dependent on our opinion about homosexual orientation or whether the Torah and Paul were correct when they condemned this kind of acts. For these reasons, I will not comment any attempts to claim that homosexual acts are either wrong or right. I could discuss about it in a church context or personal discussions but not on this forum.

I think you got it; this makes sense out of a lot of his posts – they show a set of simplistic concepts that frequently fail to match what he’s addressing or what others have actually written.

I agree – I only skimmed, but I couldn’t find what Richard was saying; indeed it seems to slant the other direction.

One summary of the book I remember said the message is “Life is pointless, so one may as well obey God” – not terribly exciting.