Heaven on earth, heaven as some other place and heat death

[St.Roymond]

@em3ry

“Heaven” is “up” but which way is up? Up is relative.

Heaven is only “up” in relation to all of spacetime – not just 90° from the horizontal, but at the same time 90° from each of the vertical planes as well. It is thus “up” in a space with more dimensions.

[em3ry]

Yes that would be one heaven. I was thinking of the heaven that’s a bit closer to home

[mitchellmckain (Scientist and Christian)]

@1Cor15.54

Not fear—at this point, I think materialism has about the same chances of being true as Baba Jaga or the tooth fairy. I was simply reflecting on the logical consequences of that worldview.

I see no objective basis for estimating probabilities. There is only the necessity of choosing how to live your life. So I have made my choice. But I honestly admit the subjectivity of that choice. So I feel no need to blind myself to other possibilities however uninteresting they seem except perhaps as a counterpoint to theism gone wrong. I will quote Camus’ “Myth of Sisyphus” about being content with the defiance of unjust gods. Empty threats thus have no theological merit, and I utterly reject attempts to put God in the role of mafia boss with a protection racket.

@1Cor15.54

What I can see is that some fundamental questions have been left unanswered though. What are we to make of all the injustices, all the pain, all the horrors in this world, if there is no ultimate justice, no enduring hope? Would there be any answer to that within such a worldview? And if the answer is no how would that bring “comfort” to suffering people?

Seems foolish to me to presume I can do any such thing. That would be in the category of something only God can do. God. Not someone to pretending to be His spokesman.

@1Cor15.54

Actually, I thought this way even when I wasn’t a Catholic, a Christian, or even a theist. I was essentially an atheist (an agnostic atheist) for a long time. Even then, I couldn’t find meaning in what I saw as a meaningless life. I still loved my people, and I still found some enjoyment in life—but the awareness that, ultimately, nothing really mattered was always there.

I wasn’t raised in any religion. I am a child of the 60s and my parents were part of that whole sociological phenomenon: free love, pot, peace marches, communes, and plenty of criticism for the whole Christian establishment. But I don’t think I was ever an atheist (rejecting the definition as someone who simply doesn’t have a belief in God). When asked, my reply was “the real question is what is God?” Didn’t come up with an answer to that one for another 5 years.

@1Cor15.54

No doubt. But it’s the Bible itself that tells us that if Christ hasn’t been raised, and if there’s no resurrection of the dead—no afterlife—then

1 Corinthians 15. One of my favorite parts of the Bible. Shows an afterlife is indeed a very important part of Christianity. I certainly wouldn’t support any effort to remove it. But NO, this doesn’t say ANYTHING at all about the topic we have been discussing.

So shall I repeat myself: “And people (like me for example) can find truth and value in Christianity without any of that fear of death and nonexistence stuff.”

@1Cor15.54

I genuinely believed in the meaninglessness of life

I did not. I believed in the value of a faith that life was worth living.