Heaven is only “up” in relation to all of spacetime – not just 90° from the horizontal, but at the same time 90° from each of the vertical planes as well. It is thus “up” in a space with more dimensions.
Yes that would be one heaven. I was thinking of the heaven that’s a bit closer to home
I see no objective basis for estimating probabilities. There is only the necessity of choosing how to live your life. So I have made my choice. But I honestly admit the subjectivity of that choice. So I feel no need to blind myself to other possibilities however uninteresting they seem except perhaps as a counterpoint to theism gone wrong. I will quote Camus’ “Myth of Sisyphus” about being content with the defiance of unjust gods. Empty threats thus have no theological merit, and I utterly reject attempts to put God in the role of mafia boss with a protection racket.
Seems foolish to me to presume I can do any such thing. That would be in the category of something only God can do. God. Not someone to pretending to be His spokesman.
I wasn’t raised in any religion. I am a child of the 60s and my parents were part of that whole sociological phenomenon: free love, pot, peace marches, communes, and plenty of criticism for the whole Christian establishment. But I don’t think I was ever an atheist (rejecting the definition as someone who simply doesn’t have a belief in God). When asked, my reply was “the real question is what is God?” Didn’t come up with an answer to that one for another 5 years.
1 Corinthians 15. One of my favorite parts of the Bible. Shows an afterlife is indeed a very important part of Christianity. I certainly wouldn’t support any effort to remove it. But NO, this doesn’t say ANYTHING at all about the topic we have been discussing.
So shall I repeat myself: “And people (like me for example) can find truth and value in Christianity without any of that fear of death and nonexistence stuff.”
I did not. I believed in the value of a faith that life was worth living.
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I don’t wish to attack you.
I was not being sarcastic.
It depends on the comparison point and the local regulations. Burning has disadvantages but they are not terrible compared to the other ways of treating the bodies. Worms and coffin flies might disagree but their voice does not count.
The body can be destroyed rapidly (burning) or decompose slowly. Both alternatives release CO2. While the amount of CO2 released in burning may seem large, it is not more than one long car trip would produce. Flying is worse, so the burning may be a small part of the environmental effects of a funeral.
Release of other pollutants, like mercury, has been a local problem but that problem is reducing because teeth our now fixed mostly with other stuff than amalgam and many cities demand an improved filtering of the smoke. In old-fashioned decomposition, the pollutants are released within a small area - the pollutants do not disappear, it is just a question of how wide they spread and in what form.
Cremation facilities take some space but that demand is smaller than the space needed for the other alternatives. In larger towns and cities, cremation is favoured because it saves space. We might claim that graveyards are beneficial areas for natural creatures but that is only partly true.
Burning is also an effective way to stop the spread of potential diseases that might be in the body.
I could be very crude and say that dead people are waste that need to be treated in some way. Although that is at least partly true, it might insult the feelings of those who miss their dear ones.
Same about what about all the animals that suffered horrible lives just so you could eat their babies? You’re still here. What justice are they going get?
Free will is a bigger topic than this post is focused on and there are already dedicated threads to it and there is no scientific consensus.
Not everyone will get justice. Plenty of evil people may never face justice. They may even rape women and kids, target brown people and then decide to become a political figure after making billions.
Want justice? Then know your justice mar end up being given to others. As more people for goodness, if humanity is worth a ■■■■, they will bring about positive change. I mean there is nothing stopping God from getting justice now. I mean he used angels to kill all kinds of people in the Bible. He used David and may others with signs and wonders. Why not just let Michael handle the pedophile billionaire cult for us.
What are you doing to stand up for justice? Which mother are talking about specifically? What protests are you going too. Whose bills are you helping cover with your small donations? What number are you calling every day to leave voicemails so that the representatives have to listen to them. Or is justice just something you don’t have to participate in because we will get it as ghosts? We don’t need to chain ourselves for 2 days to old growth oak trees that are habitats for endangered birds because God will give us justice by restoring everything.
So you believe in a physical resurrection? I’ll just ask questions one at a time.
Just so you know my sentences went on do using what it was more environmentally friendly than.
No. You were being condescending.
Honestly, I was being sarcastic in turning that condescension back on you.
So… how about a serious analytical look at paganism. What is it?
Besides the use of idols and turning created things into gods. Paganism is religion which consists of an attempt to appease angry god(s). But often Christianity looks exactly like that with its talk of offerings, payment for sin, and being washed in blood. This is why I speak of Paganism 2.0, because the question becomes whether this is what Christianity is really about or does it just sound that way because paganism was its original audience?
I certainly think the latter is the case, because I didn’t see any value in Christianity until I understood the essential message was that God as Christianity understood Him could not be appeased or manipulated. This is because it was never about divine anger, but about truth and the unavoidable consequences of our self-destructive habits.
The problem (the enemy) was never God but ourselves. Christianity is not about appeasing the divine mafia godfather and making our racketeering payments. Otherwise, Paganism 2.0 is exactly what Christianity becomes.
Don’t get me wrong. I am going my evangelical church this morning and singing praise for what our lord Jesus has done for us. I read the Bible as the word of God, and I am well aware of what it says, even as I utterly reject the understanding of Christianity as Paganism 2.0. And I can do that because both the Bible and the songs we sing says so much more. It speaks of God who was so consumed with love for us He became a helpless human infant and subjected Himself to our sinful behavior which attacks and destroys everything which tries to save us from ourselves. An so it is NOT paganism to say Jesus took our sins upon Himself and died for us even if it sound somewhat similar to the pagan religions. But the goal was never to appease an angry God but make us understand how much He loves us, and how devastatingly costly is the sin we cling to.
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But what mafia godfather ever sent his own son to work in behalf of uncooperative clients and when some clients killed that son rewarded all his clients by forgiving all their debts and obligations?
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If it’s 90° from every direction then it’s always just around the corner – we just can’t turn that corner yet.
some of the evil in the world makes us angry and bitter, and I am not immune. We recently studied Romans 12:19-20, where Paul reminds us that vengeance is the Lord’s, and we are called to show love. I have to remind myself of that quite frequently lately, and reflect that if it was easy, God wouldn’t have to keep telling us that.
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True—but there’s even more to it. In 1 Peter 3:19, St. Peter tells us that Jesus went to speak to the spirits in prison—that is, to proclaim the good news of the Gospel and announce that their liberation from the realm of the dead (Hades) was at hand. Ever since the first sin, the gates of Heaven had been closed, and all righteous souls who died had to remain in Hades until Christ came to reign.
Believing in the Christian God is one thing—it requires faith in the testimony of the Apostles. Believing in a first cause, however, is an entirely different matter. I still believe that Aquinas’s Five Ways are immeasurably more rational than atheism.
That was precisely my point. Materialism offers no meaningful answer except something like, “Well, you got dealt a bad hand—tough luck.” It has nothing to say about the pain and injustices of this world. Under materialism, someone like Jimmy Savile—again, not that materialists condone his actions—lived a long, fulfilling life and never paid for his crimes. If this life is all there is, then he never will. Likewise, someone who lives selflessly and dies young simply ceases to exist—just worm food. Materialism paints a vision of the universe that is profoundly unjust—or rather, a universe in which concepts like justice and injustice are nonsensical in the first place. Like you said “That would be in the category of something only God can do. God.” But for the deniers of God there can be no answers to that, nor can there be justice.
I was essentially an atheist. I hoped I was wrong, but I genuinely believed atheism was true. For me, moral and phylosophical nihilism was simply a logical consequence of that worldview. Did I live as a full-fledged nihilist? No—but I was aware of the inconsistency whenever I didn’t. I never pretended there were objective values—and that cast a shadow over everything, at the time.
Excuse me, but when the Bible says, “If the dead are not raised, let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die,” what is it actually saying?
Saint Paul’s argument echoes the existential consequences of denying an afterlife or transcendent justice. Without resurrection, there’s no ultimate justice, no lasting meaning, and no reason not to just pursue pleasure without a care in the world.
At what point did I deny that?
I didn’t say it was up. I said it might be in outer space. Technically heaven in the New Testament follows the Ancient Greek conception of the cosmos. 1st heaven the air which from below the moon to the ground we stand on, 2nd heaven the seven heavens where the planets are embedded into celestial spheres that are revolving around causing the orbits, 3rd heaven the Empyrion where God lives. All of these places would be filled with principalities and powers associated with the planets and stars and fate and the pagan gods that were thought to hold the earth captive. This is what Paul is talking about when he writes of the prince of the power of the air, being caught up to the third heaven, the Stoicha, and the principalities, dominions, thrones, and powers in the “heavenly places.”
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yes and all of those heavens are up. But which way is up. Up is relative. Up is the opposite direction from the direction in which you fall. But which direction do people fall? it’s relative.
I think a consistent element of the historic Christian and Biblical understanding of Heaven is that it is a future time when humanity, creation, and God are reconciled. I think most descriptions of Heaven in the Bible are probably more meant to be metaphors or apocalyptic imagery rather than literal depictions. For example, I don’t see a reason to try to figure out how the world will work when there is no sea and God is the source of physical light instead of the sun. Also, I don’t think the New Jerusalem will necessarily be a giant box, though it could be. I have recently become interested in Frank Tipler’s idea that the new creation/heaven will take place in a virtual reality created by computronium networks that engulf the universe right before the Big Crunch. Tipler’s idea is that we could experience an infinite amount of subject time in a virtual universe even though the universe will end in finite proper time. Tipler’s theory hasn’t stood up to the evidence of course (there won’t be a Big Crunch most likely), but a version of his notion of future immortality could also play out in a single Dyson Sphere or perhaps network of Dyson spheres created by our distant descendants around stars across the galaxy. I prefer to think that the Heaven stage will involve the entire universe and not just a single Dyson sphere around a lonely star though.
I’m a little time constrained, sorry. I haven’t replied yet but I will.
Sure but I think many confuse love for simply ignoring evil. Part of loving our neighbors is naturalizing evil. I’m not talking about taking a gun to houses after doxxing ICE agents but I am talking about not being a coward and hiding behind “ let god handle it”
When I’m pretty sure gods way of handling it is for us to protests against it, vote against it and call evil actions out, to call local officials and push for the investigation into crimes if they are left ignored. About a year ago I got a local company in quite a bit of trouble. I like hiking and this includes hiking along roads right after rainfall to look for frogs and snakes in ditches. There is always some oil from just being next to roads burn noticed one road had an absurd amount of oil in it. I noticed that instead of the typical 20+ species of native and nonnative plants growing in backroad ditches this one has way less diversity. So just out of curiosity I followed it. The ditch was then interconnected to two other man made canals that was small. Like 3 feet deep and 3 feet wide. One ran through a crop field edge and despite that jad lots of plants. The other went through a woodland. The water was only about 1 feet deep and I had on my typical water boots that goes to my knees. So I hopped in. I followed it about 3/4 of a mile and it went into another larger canal and past a series of screens that had trash all in them. It was like thicker metal x chains between a metal frame with spiky legs driven into the ground. Was working fairly effectively. Anyways I could see this went about another 1/3 of a mile through just muddy grassland to another manufacturing plant similar to where I work. Did not even know it was there and I’ve been here my whole life. It’s down a series of a few backroads. The canal went through a fence that was like 16 feet tall. Could not go through it but on Google earth the canal was visible and went up to the side of the plant and so I went along the fence towards what was back parking in a private lot. The shrunk down to just about 2nd wet wide and 1 foot deep and led to a building. So I got a pics and then went back along the path getting more pics and videos. Got back to my truck and drove to the company.
They were not wearing any uniform, just normal clothes and the same brand and everything of safety glasses and gloves we wears so I put my mine own and went up to the employee entrance on the front and the door was open and so I stepped in and saw an older employee and waved and he came over and I said I was here to take a look at this backroom. He did not even question it and walked me back there. Asked him if he knew about oil leaks. He said no but that it’s the weld shop and another employee often works down there. So he left to get
Him. I walked to the back there the drain was. It said “water only” but had lil stains all around it. The welding employee came down and said when they are finished with a press and it needs new oil they run a hose to that presses pan and vacuum it out and drain it. They had about 20 presses, most of them in the 200 ton range which is fairly large.
So then I asked for their safety coordinator. He came down and I showed him the pictures. Told him what I saw. He asked what plant was I with, and I told him none. He was then angry that I was there. Said i as trespassing. I said actually I came
In from the public side, and the door was open and an employee took me. Not my fault they don’t have a protocol for visitors. Then told him I’m not looking for trouble and I don’t want money or anything. Just that they need to stop draining oil into the water waste area.
I then called a friend who , I’m not actually sure who she works with. It’s some kind of tribal ecology organization and she works with the watershed area. I showed her the canal. It ended up being about 4 miles long, connecting to other canals and leading to the watershed I hike all the time. She went through the proper method and through they dropped fining the company or anything they did make them send their board of directors and the plant managers to the reservation and watch a video on river health and so on. I have not hiked the spot again but she last told me
About 6 months ago that the company stopped doing it and “was not aware employees” were doing that.
So to much justice is often that. Not waiting for God to do something he only did in the Bible and never today, and correct it now instead of hoping he’s real and that he will do something about it.
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I wouldn’t place the evil that befalls animals on the same level as the evil that befalls humans. I do believe that senseless and unnecessary animal suffering is deeply wrong, but I wouldn’t go so far as to say that eating animals is inherently evil.
The best I can, I think.
I wish I could say I’m only talking about one.
But the truth is, I’ve met quite a few mothers—and fathers—who have lost their sons and daughters. And I know that kind of pain is the most unbearable of all.
Before my conversion, I was a very different person. And that’s not just rhetoric—I truly mean very different. I wasn’t a diagnosed psychopath, but in hindsight, I recognize that I had many traits from what’s often called the “dark triad.” I used to dump girls as soon as I got bored, without a second thought. I was undeniably on the callous side of the spectrum. To give another example, I used to enjoy watching gore videos. Children and animals were off-limits, even back then—but everything else? I was on board with it. I liked it. Hell, the more gruesome it was the more I enjoyed it. I was also a martial artist, and I loved getting into fights—I felt a rush whenever there was real danger. I even used to carry weapons, despite it being illegal in my country
It’s not that I didn’t care about anyone at all—I did—but the depth of that caring was shallow, and I always put myself first. Charity? Volunteering? Those ideas hardly ever crossed my mind. And when they did, I always found more pleasurable things to do instead.
There were some acts of kindness I did here and there but they felt inconsistent, they felt purposeless, just like my life.
But after my conversion, something changed. Something profound. I was given—what I can only describe as—a gift/curse: the ability to emotionally connect with people on a deep level. Not just superficial empathy. I could actually feel what others were feeling, sometimes even before having any rational way of knowing what they were going through. That’s how I came to understand the agony of losing a child.
I don’t have children yet—though my soon-to-be wife and I plan on having at least two or three—but after what happened to me, and after meeting parents who experienced that kind of tragedy, I know what it feels like. The first time I had that kind of “connection,” I went through three days of pure spiritual hell. It was suffering of the highest order.
Another time, we were taking care of a homeless man—who later became a very good friend of mine. (He passed away a year and a half ago.) He had been completely ruined by his ex-wife and her lover. He lost everything. I felt what was in his heart before he told me a single word. And when we finally spoke, I asked him some questions that left him stunned. He couldn’t believe I knew. And honestly, neither could I.
I don’t know why God gave me this gift—this burden. Since my conversion, I’ve experienced more joy than I ever had before, but also more pain than I ever thought possible. God gave me a new heart, filled with a capacity for love and compassion that I didn’t know I had. And the reason I didn’t know I had it? Because I didn’t. It wasn’t mine. It’s a work of God, the Holy Spirit.
The two examples I’ve shared are just a couple among dozens over the past years. Like I said, I don’t know why God gave me this gift/curse. Maybe He wants me to experience my Purgatory here on Earth. Only God knows.
But I’m glad He changed me. Even before my conversion, I had begun to reflect on how shallow my life was, how empty my heart felt. One day, I decided to walk into a Church. I literally washed my face with Holy water. It was afternoon, the Church was mostly empty—just an old woman praying at the far end. I walked up near the Tabernacle and I told God that I didn’t believe in Him. That it all seemed like nonsense to me—especially the idea that a piece of bread could become the true body of Christ. It sounded absolutely insane. But I also told Him that if He were real, if He truly existed, then He could prove it by changing my heart.
I told Him I was exhausted—tired of my shallow emotions, my inability to truly love, my habit of objectifying people. Sometimes I felt more like a robot than a human being. I told Him that if He was real, He was the only one who could change me. I told Him that I felt like I was talking to Santa Claus, that maybe I was just getting crazy.
Then I started to cry—something I very rarely did. I hadn’t even cried at my grandfather’s funeral. But something started that day.
Afterward, my life continued as normal. I figured it was just an odd emotional moment. I went back to my old self. But a few months later, one Saturday I woke up with this deep, unexplainable sadness and this new capacity to connect with others on a profound emotional level. That same period was also when events began to unfold that led to the conversion of my entire family.
We were nominal Christians. I had been baptized and confirmed, yes—but prayer wasn’t part of our lives. We never went to Mass except for Christmas. That all changed.
So to return to your question: no, I’m not just talking about just mother or one father. And the pain of a parent losing their child is like no other. It’s one thing to understand it intellectually. It’s something entirely different to feel it firsthand. And I know that there is no way that kind of pain has no answer, I know that it’s completely absurd to think that the “true” answer might be “your son is just worm food”.
Not going to brag but let me assure you that I take Matthew 25:31-46 very, very seriously.
How could I not believe in it? Jesus is the firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and His resurrection is a reflection of the one that awaits humanity.
As for the damned, I’m not entirely sure. We know from John 5:28-29 they too will rise—to a resurrection of condemnation—following the particular judgment they receive. What form their resurrected bodies will take remains unclear. But the bodies of the saved will be glorious: physical, yet no longer subject to the tyranny and determinism of matter, but governed instead by the laws of the Spirit.
Jesus, as Scripture says, is the firstborn of all creation, and His resurrection is the archetype of what is to come.
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Since you believe in a physical resurrection do you behave we are resurrected on this planet, or are we resurrected in another realm than this earth we live on?
For 99% of people on this planet anytime they eat an animal, it’s unnecessary suffering since we don’t need to eat them to thrive. What’s the necessary suffering of animals versus the unnecessary suffering?
Can I be a good Christian and kick my dog everyday. Everytime they pee in my house or every time they bark can I beat them or would that make you struggle with seeing me as a good Christian? What if it was not my pet. What if I just kept them in a crate. The crate had a grated bottom so poop and so on fell down through it. I sprayed them and cage out every few days. I feed them. But I never played with them. I never pet them. I have them shots, water, vitamins and food while they stayed in their cage and after about a year I dragged them out, shot them in the head and ate them. That’s less evil than a dog I pet, take for walks, but occasionally beat severely? What if instead of a dog we now do a pig? Is a pigs depression and fear less than that of a dog? Birds are like 99 birds equal a human but maybe 40 dogs equals person whole 60 pigs equal a person?
Normally I am mostly silent on animal rights in these forums but since injustices have been brought up and how the afterlife is where justice takes place in figured might as well dive into it.
Are chimpanzee more valuable than dogs because they are far more human like genetically, biologically and morphologically? We share a far closer basal form with far less divergent traits than that of a crab, which can also show human recognition and seemingly show care. Such as pet crabs that crawl to their owners, show joy when being pet and won’t pinch their owners and even carefully take food from them.
As a Christian, I believe in a new Heaven and a new Earth.
The universe as we know it is currently governed by entropy, which leads all things toward disorder and, ultimately, death.
But I place my hope in a reality governed by entirely different laws—a new creation. As Revelation 21:4 declares:
‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.’”
Why would you do that?
That seems like a rhetorical question.
In any case, I fully believe that the new creation will be free from animal suffering—a position I’ve already expressed here, so there’s that.