Heaven - Anyone else having a hard time with the concept of Heaven

Anyone else having a hard time with the concept of heaven?

According to how it is popularly portrayed in both popular media and by many Christians? definitely. But for that reason I simply discard such notions.

First of all the Biblical use of word is considerably different. In the Bible both the earth and the heavens require renewal and salvation. It is the place where God can be encountered more substantially. But more importantly the principle promise of salvation in Jesus’ teaching is not entrance into heaven but eternal life (which should not be equated with endless existence).

Indeed! Most explorations of living forever in film and literature lead to the conclusion that this is quite a burden and something to escape from. So it seems to me that the difference between heaven and hell is whether we have that which makes an eternal existence worthwhile.

I believe the essence of eternal life is a relationship with an infinite God, where there is no end to what He has to give and from whom there is no end to what we can receive. This is why God is the source of life… not because He can make us live forever but because from Him we can obtain that which makes an eternal existence worthwhile: endless frontiers of growth, learning, and becoming.

One of the things that has given atheists considerable pause is the idea that heaven is like being in church always and forever. And their bad experiences caused them to say they prefer the company in hell. Indeed the difference between heaven and hell is far more likely about the company than the scenery. Some people make a place more heavenly by being there while others make the place oppressive, dark, and even sickly.

Memory is a tricky thing even while we are alive. It seems to me that it derives largely from significance. So it seems to me our memory of such things (as it always is) depends on the significance those things have for us.

I think that comes from the mistaken notion that heaven is some kind of ultimate reward for being good. I don’t think that is correct. I often say that hell is our heart’s desire (the road to that destination anyway), and heaven is what God desires for us instead.

I don’t believe in purgatory because nobody is without sin, so the place where sin is dealt with is the only heaven with any people in it.

So, I frankly think that the road to hell is the comfortable option and it is heaven which is difficult and painful. For in the former we can keep our sins (our self destructive habits) and in the latter they must be cut out of us, which all the evidence I see tells me this is a long and painful operation.

So if heaven is not about rewarding us for good, then what makes the difference? That would be the willingness to let go of our sin (our self destructive habits) – the willingness to change.

Thinking you can make rules by which you can say who goes to heaven and who goes to hell is called legalism and this is condemned in Romans 10. The rules are made as a guide to point the right way, not to take God’s place as judge so we can judge in His place.

Frankly the greatest paradise I see is the nonexistence believed in by the atheists. I don’t believe in it because it just seems too easy to me. I don’t believe we can escape from the consequences of our choices. And yes, as it says in Romans 2, God will deliver to everyone according to his works. This is not about salvation but the simple fact that we cannot escape from the consequences of our choices. So I think it remains a fact whether we end up in heaven or hell, that we will have reason to regret every bad thing we have done and to be thankful for every good thing.

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Renewal, yes, but salvation is something pertaining to Earth alone and indeed happens because the Kingdom of Heaven has invaded the Earth.
I have to wonder if this is a point where the Jewish idea of three heavens came from in part: the highest heaven where there is only righteousness, the middle heaven where God meets His council, and the lowest heaven which is the vast universe beyond our atmosphere. The middle heaven only needs renewal, which is accomplished by kicking out God’s rebellious council (and their cohort); the situation with the lowest heaven seems debatable.

Nice perspective!

Which is the very concept behind purgatory.

The biblical image of paradise includes work. I’m not sure how the concept turned into a place where there’s nothing that needs to be done.

Your alteration of what I said is quite offensive and amounts to lying and outright deception.

What I don’t believe in is the nonexistence after death which atheists subscribe to. I said that seems like paradise to me. But I said NOTHING whatsoever about the existence of paradise. Frankly, there are places on earth which look like a lot like paradise to me.

Alteration? Not a bit – I cited you in line with standard practice–

“Paradise” is the obvious antecedent to “it”.

Thank you. I was not familiar with Bruce Greyson but I just watched one of his videos and I should look into his books.

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Poor excuse! The “paradise” that was referring to was quite clearly stated to be the nonexistence after death believed in by atheists.

Can you elaborate a little on what you mean by this and how you distinguish eternal life from endless existence?

Vinnie

…with pleasure.

A rock can exist for a very long time but it is not alive. Life is more than that. Life is growth, learning, becoming, freedom, and awareness. When Jesus said in John 10:10, “I came that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly,” He was not speaking of an increased life expectancy. He was speaking of the opposite of the sort of death as when He said, “let the dead bury their own dead,” an increase of the things that make for life, which make our existence worthwhile.

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Just wanted to note that my interpretation of revelation as being non literal was not influenced by my interpretation of Genesis 1-3. It’s the opposite. It was preterism helping me to see the symbolism within revelation that opened me up to accepting Genesis 1-3 as non literal.

My naive 2¢ worth.

Not since I was ten have I considered it likely that heaven was something that would commence only after we’re dead at which time we’d be transformed and yet essentially still us.

I think heaven is eternal but something we only experience when all the conditions are right, most especially and perhaps only ever while we are still alive. After death we return to God from whence we came to be made use of as He sees fit. We simply cannot see beyond the veil and it ceases to be our concern when we in this life cease.

Screenshot 2023-11-27 at 10-44-52 Stuart Chase Quotes

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Factual evidence can be willfully ignored or denied though.

You should check out NT Wright’s Surprised by Hope. (He’s an Anglican Bible scholar and bishop, not too far away from Catholic theologically) It really helped me understand what the Bible says about heaven and weed out a lot of stuff I had just absorbed from pop culture.

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He seems to have been at this for quite a while! Some like me are just late-comers to what he’s been doing.

Heaven and judgement makes no sense to me personally. If we are able to love each other so can God even with our shortcomings. And a Being capable of creating us can also enlighten us.

In the sense of one person judging another person, I would quite agree. But I don’t think that is what divine judgment really refers to. I think divine judgement is more about the natural consequences of the things we do. Why call it divine judgement? Because God is the one who set up things to work that way. And I certainly don’t think a consequence free existence is rationally supportable – life isn’t even possible in such an environment. For example… God created gravity and thus a person who steps off a tall building will splatter on the ground below. People might have called such things divine judgement. Such rules and laws are essential for life because it is all about learning and development in response to such laws. Without them there is little reason for any of the things of life.

But can we even comprehend love in a consequence free existence. According to H.G. Wells the answer seems to be no. The idyllic existence of the eloi in his book “The Time machine,” made them more like sheep and unable to understand why they would put themselves at risk for another person.

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I think this fits with my sister’s version, that God’s judgment is a quality-control matter: we end up stuck with how we ‘built’ ourselves.

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Not just Wells (though that’s a great comparison), but some Orthodox theologians I’ve listened to. One made the point that even Eden was not consequences-free, that any time there is gravity and there are rough or sharp surfaces, physical injuries are possible.

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