If we think of Heaven based on our experiences in the current life, our imagination will lead to ideas that will sooner or later become boring and not worth living. I guess I would rather stop existing than spend a billion years doing some of the things I did not have time to do in this life.
I do not know what eternal life will be like but I guess it will be very different from the experiences we have in this life. Getting bored or depressed are feelings based on the chemistry within our brains. If we do not have the same kind of brain chemistry in the eternal life, we may not ever feel bored or depressed. We can just make wild guesses as we do not have sufficient information.
I have noted that Christian music includes such ideas and imagination about Heaven that do not seem to be very biblical. Nice songs, nice feelings but the images these songs are drawing are probably far from the reality. I do not know so I just have to wait until I see.
While hiking a long section of the Pacific Crest Trail with university friends we one day got into a deep discussion of this, wondering how much of who we are is determined by our brain chemistry and whether our true identities are constrained by the compounds that influence our brains. The discussion sprang from the fact that I had decided to hike farther than originally planned, which meant I would be running out of a medication prescribed for dealing with bipolar disorder, and my companions wondered how I would become different without those pills.
Sounds to me like the āJesus is my Boyfriendā variety of contemporary Christian music . . . and one reason I love old Lutheran hymns: they teach good theology.
We cannot begin to imagine what heaven might be like, our minds simply arenāt capable, so I donāt think thereās too much point in spending time thinking about it. Just live our lives as best we can and trust in God.
The eminent English theologian Tom Wright, who is very biblically-based, has an interesting concept, namely that what we think of as heaven, a place we go when we die, is really just a staging-post on the way to āa new heaven and a new earthā, a phrase which appears several times in both Old and New Testaments. Again we obviously cannot imagine this, and for me it raises questions about whether the ānew earthā refers just to our planet or to the entire universe. Whether or not heās right (and he presents fairly convincing biblical arguments) I donāt think thereās much point in spending too much time trying to imagine it. Just live the best we can.
Or old ones from plenty of other denominations too. Even ones that I generally disagree with (about a dozen medieval Catholic-origin ones come to mind).
Me too (and their counterpoint ; - )! Somewhat newer Welsh ones are good as well, and their tunes (āO the Deep, Deep Love of Jesusā and Ebenezer springs to mind).
I like that. YECs, thinking (or not) that the first creation was perfect imagine ārestorationā. It was a two creation model from the start and the first was destined for futility all along.
They also fail in imagination. Eden as in the Old Testament was never meant as a final state for humans, it was a beginning only, and whatever path events took the goal was a glorified humanity fit for judging angels.
Interesting. I donāt agree with Wrightās concept ā itās too dualistic for me, bordering on Gnosticism ā but itās interesting nonetheless.
My experience as a cataphatic mystic has shown me that there are many little hints spread all around Planet Earth that can give us some language and imagery for talking about our lives as persons-of-soul once we leave this mortal coil. These images from science and nature can be felt by anyone, and they have the benefit of bypassing the human brainās reliance on written words that can be as slippery as an eel coated in WD40.
In no particular order, here are some āPost-Itā notes from the book of Godās wondrous Creation that have struck me as being unusually vivid in terms of what they say about the soul and the Home to which weāll all return some day.
state changes and properties of water
magnetic fields
the language of trees (that is, the networks we now know exist among trees)
metamorphosis process for winged insects (that is, the use of imaginal discs to rearrange oneās shape and organs)
the horseshoe crab (especially the unique amebocytes in its blood)
the Uncertainty Principle
photons as both wave and particle (a somewhat hackneyed spiritual metaphor, but still useful)
bioluminescence
sonoluminescence
blindsight (the ability of some people who are cortically blind to acquire environmental evidence that would seem to involve the use of their eyes)
music (a universal language)
Anyway, this list is very short, and Iām sure others have had different experiences that have drawn them closer to the Divine. Godās Creation is infinitely breathtaking in its beauty and complexity, despite all the painful realities of our lives as human beings.
I personally believe that if you think you can squish all the colours and sounds and shapes and timelines of Godās Creation (including Heaven) into one book or one piece of music or one piece of art, while failing to consider the possibility that every nook and cranny of Planet Earth has something to say about the universe as a whole, youāre seriously underestimating Godās capabilities.
Also, on a separate note, to those who celebrate Thanksgiving today, may it be a day of joy for you!
I donāt know about Lutheran hymns in other countries but here, the hymn book needed to be officially accepted in a synod of the Lutheran church. That kept some control on what kind of texts could be included.
The control is perhaps not so strict anymore as the Lutheran church has shifted towards more liberal thinking and many of the new representatives in the synods are not committed to traditional interpretations of the Bible. A fairly large proportion support the idea that love is the greatest principle and therefore, we must accept or at least be tolerant to all kinds of interpretations and life styles within the Lutheran church. There is one exception: the traditional conservative interpretations are barely tolerated. The ongoing turn away from traditional interpretations has lead to a rise of another national Lutheran church that sticks strictly to the traditional interpretations and the old Lutheran confessions.
After listening to all 8 of his Gifford Lectures, not only does it seem nearly impossible to see Wright as a dualist, but Iām wondering if he considers himself a monist! I donāt remember him ever using that word specificially, but he brings up ādualismā more than once - and always disapprovingly, as he thinks it an early Platonist (rather than early Jewish) influence on our understandings.
Regarding your list of fascinating āPost-Itsā - Wright also had a series of what he referred to as ābroken sign-pointersā that would not in themselves bring us to God (distancing himself from natural theology in that regard), but that would make sense from the retrospective view of somebody who already has the revelation of the resurrected Christ in mind, and from that vantage - all these other things then āmake senseā within that new world view. Here they are (from lecture 7!) ā¦
Justice, Beauty, Freedom, Truth, Power, Spirituality, Relationships.
Those things not only find their home within that perspective, but are (think of Power) ā¦ transformed by it.
Tom Wright (sometimes called N.T.Wright) outlines his views on this in his book āSurprised by Hopeā. But Iād love to ask him if he could be more specific, on the point I raised. I can accept the concept of the whole universe being a ānew earthā, but not just our planet, which would presumably still be subject to gravitation and all the other physical forces that affect all objects.
Whatever it is, itās beyond all space and time and our finite minds cannot begin to comprehend it.
Thanks for this, Merv. I donāt disagree with you about the monism. Itās somewhat paradoxical, but the dualism of early Platonism almost always ends up breeding monism. You would think that dualism and monism are at opposite ends of the philosophical spectrum, but in fact, what seems to happen is that adherents of dualism end up boxing themselves into such a corner when trying to explain God that they have no recourse but to endorse a murky sort of monism (clouds of know/unknowing and the like).
Canāt stay to chat right now . . . Iām on my way to babysit my grandchildren.
What I see among many Lutherans here is a drift into fundamentalism where liturgical traditions are dropped along with those parts of the Confessions ā sort of the flip side of heterodoxy.
I used to really struggle with death and eternity. I mean bad. There are some phobias related to death and also the concept of eternity.
I think I have just accepted death as a mystery at this point.
I recently contributed to a book on NDEs but I also accept that there could be no afterlife. However, many studies on NDE, after death communications, death bed experiences and reincarnation sure indicate that something is going on after death. The 50 year study at UVA is good.
I used to be so worried about love ones who are not saved. However, I no longer believe in eternal torment. What kind of creator would allow for such a thing?
If we do indeed have a loving creator and we continue after death, I think we will be busy with new creation. If we just sit on clouds playing a harp I would prefer no afterlife.
Have you participated in the work of UVA psychiatrist Bruce Greyson? His book After contains some interesting case studies, even though itās a field thatās very difficult to research according to the usual protocols.
I wouldnāt worry too much about the harps. Thereās too much to do and too much learn on the Other Side!
A few weeks ago I had trouble getting to sleep because I got hit by a sudden terror of death precisely because of the idea of eternity, if that makes any sense. It was amplified by the conviction that I shouldnāt be afraid.
A friend who was in the university orchestra (French horn) commented about the harp business once by pointing out that a harp is just one musical instrument and God plainly ā given the multitude of species ā prefers variety, so at the very least there will be all the instruments ever used in an orchestra or other public performance types, from every continent and culture.
Youāre asking more than two questions, several scattered or based on traditional and cultural āhearsay.ā Thatās OK. Most of us have been there. I suggest reading simple language, well organized book for starters: āWhat is Jesus was Serious About Heaven?ā Itās a quick read with direct answers you may/may not like.