Good and Evil, Towb and Ra

None that mattered? He didn’t know about the speed of light, either.

Why would he? Why should I? No one is suggesting that it would matter to them.

You continue to infer things that have not been implied, I don’t know why.

I guess not. :grin: Why did you not address Psalm 90 (speaking of Moses ; - ) ?

Have you ever heard of saying something for rhetorical effect (or for that matter hyperbole and poetic license all over the place in the Old Testament)?

@rrobs, @JerryN: From earlier…

If we’re still talking about God not definitely knowing the future, I don’t see where Psalm 90 says He does. Was there something else you wanted to know about it?

What you need to know about it is that God is independent of time and not straightjacketed by it, even though you appear to want him to be.

Is he omnipresent? If you believe he is, then you really should watch this (it’s not boring):

Start at about timestamp 19:15 to save time. :grin:

For those outside the licensed streaming viewing geography, below are some screenshots (spacetime slices? :slightly_smiling_face:) from the video to help you visualize what he is talking about. The transcript does not contain timestamps, but a “Find on page” text search (or whatever your browser calls it) on the text “In our day-to-day lives, we experience time as a continuous flow” corresponds to the video timestamp 19:15 just noted.

Why then did He lead Jeremiah to think that He wasn’t sure if Israel would repent of not? (Jer 36:3,)

Why would would God plant a vineyard expecting it to grow good grapes but they turned out sour? (Is 5:2)

Why would God tell Israel to return to Him if He knew they wouldn’t? (Jer 3:7)

Yes, God does know the beginning and the end. He obviously knows of the beginning of Gen 1:1 and He knows the end of Rev 2:6. but He is not sure how it will all happen. That depends on the free will actions of people. He’s so smart and resourceful that He will bring to pass a new earth by bobbing and weaving with the actions of people. He doesn’t force. He adapts.

Are you getting the idea that God is not constrained by time from the scriptures, NOVA, or both? Or maybe neither?

Maybe I’m misunderstanding your position. Do you think the Bible talks about QM, the big bang, or the speed of light?

God adapts. Sure he does. I don’t think you have the big picture. Talk to me about Judas’ free will.

No maybe about it – you are again (or still) inferring incorrectly, even after I explicitly said those were irrelevant:

Interestingly enough, as soon as I started to watch the video I recalled that I had indeed watched it some time ago. While I found it somewhat interesting, I didn’t equate it with the scriptures at all.

As I’ve tried to explain before, God would have had no reason whatsoever to explain time to the original audience. The scriptures are a religious book, not a science book. I’ve also said that all true science is because of God, but that was not the subject of His speakings to Israel.

Equate? Good grief. Nor do I. Do I ‘equate’ the speed of light with it? That does not mean that what science tells us about it is false.

You have nothing to explain – I am not disagreeing with that. But is it science to say that God is omnipresent? It is not. Neither is it science to say that he is omnipresent in time.

There is a good reason for why I’m not sure about your position, namely, you seem hesitant to answer a simple question with a direct answer. Does your saying the answers to my question is irrelevant mean that the Bible does or does not talk about QM, the big band, or the speed of light?

??

I said so explicitly. You seem hesitant to understand. The Bible does not talk about QM, the big band [sic :grin: wrong era – that was the middle of last century] or the speed of light.

Well, thanks to much effort on your part, I finally understand. Thanks! I’m usually a big quicker on the uptake.

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Your error of logic is equating foreknowledge with active interference, with actual control. I am certain that God had His prophet tell His people the truth, that they had a choice that would have real consequences, and told them also what He wanted as a sincere attempt to influence their choice, without controlling the choice. Doesn’t God influence us by whatever we read in the bible? That doesn’t mean God is controlling us. We still have choices to make.
I believe that God also knew what choice you would make, but did not control you to force you to make that choice. The difference is knowing something because you have seen it happen, or causing something to happen. I am not guilty of shooting someone if I see another person shoot someone, but I still know that it happened if I saw it, even if I didn’t cause the action.
I believe that God’s knowledge of what we will do is only there because God exists outside of time, so God’s knowledge is based on His observing what we did choose to do in the future. I do believe God does work in this world today, and I am sure that some of what He does is intended to influence people to make the right choice, when that particular choice is very important in His overall plan. But here, too, observation of how God created the universe, and how His universe operates, gives us some insight into how God can make “all things work together for good…” The entire material world is made up of myriads of particles so small that we cannot ever measure the exact location and state of motion of any one of them. Yet, they bond together in huge numbers, with the activity of the aggregate being highly predictable. We can build complex machines, like cars, or even bigger things, like a power grid, and know that they will work as designed without knowing exactly where any single electron is. This tells me that God can very accurately know the large scale behavior of a society without impinging on the free will of any of the society’s individual members. And I trust God to be even better at accomplishing His purposes in this world than what I can imagine.

These are moderately relevant:

And don’t forget Judas’ free will. Yes, he did have it.

I would say that ‘foreknowledge’ is a word, a tensed word, that does not really apply to God since he is outside of (actually all through) time. More correctly it might be said that he dynamically relates? (@Relates ; - ) I am not saying I understand this wonderful (awe-full) mystery – I am only describing it.

If not active interference or actual control, what would compel me to do what God knew I’d do? I certainly wouldn’t be free to do anything other than what God knew I’d do. I would in fact have had no choice at all. Where is the breakdown in logic in saying I’d have to do what God knew I’d do? Would I be free to do something other than what He knew I’d do? If we go by logic, I don’t think I would be free at all.

If God knew my choice, then how could I have chosen anything other than what He knew I’d choose?

What exactly do you mean by God existing outside of time? Not that you are wrong, but scripture references would help me understand.

Those are past tense and timebound – God is not bound by time. Tensed language does not really apply to God (it is however the only thing we’ve got in English and many others).

@Christy: There are languages that are not as intrinsically time-based as English, aren’t there, or where tense is irrelevant?