God's relationship to early humans

@Jon_Garvey

I guess we are at an impasse.

You write: "Spiritual truths are revealed by God’s acts in history, not as atemporal principles…"
followed by “… spiritually significant episodes of Genesis are founded on real events…”

This is at the very core of our dispute. I can’t imagine a Spiritual Truth being invalidated if it doesn’t
have a historical event explicating it in the Bible.

And yet you seem to insist on this.

There is no solution… for YOU anyway. Most other people don’t believe that the truth about relationships in
heaven can ONLY be true if there really was a woman who married 7 brothers in a row!

Mar 12:19 - 25
"Master, Moses wrote unto us, If a man’s brother die, and leave his wife behind him, and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
Now there were seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and dying left no seed.
And the second took her, and died, neither left he any seed: and the third likewise.
And the seven had her, and left no seed: last of all the woman died also.
In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them?
for the seven had her to wife. And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not
therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in
marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven. "

Probably Jesus should have just explained that if the story wasn’t a TRUE story about a woman and 7 brothers,
there was no point in discussing it…

Sincerely,

George Brooks

@Jon_Garvey
@gbrooks9

I’m a bit confused by this dialogue. Jon seems to be saying that Genesis 1 is talking about a cosmic temple that teaches spiritual truth. George seems to be saying that that the descriptions in Genesis 1 reflect the incorrect scientific views of the ancient world (I.e., a dome that held back the waters) … But ultimately that doesn’t matter, because it teaches spiritual truth (which is what’s important).

Aren’t you both arguing for the same thing? Don’t mean to be a referee or anything … But I’m confused.

Both my dad and I, Independantly came to the conclusion that Genesis 1 talked about water that was ABOVE the sun, moon and stars. We came to this conclusion because we both read the Bible in much the same way (the literal plain meaning approach).

At the time this bothered me because the description didn’t seem to fit with reality, so I looked it up online and found that NASA actually discovered trillions of oceans worth of water out there in space! I was amazed and delighted… And continued reading the Bible in the same way I did before.

After awhile I realized that my conclusion was a bit silly of me. Did I really believe that when God separated the ocean of water on Earth, that he flung that “sky water” millions of lightyears away, just so 3,500 years later NASA could make the discovery?

I eventually dropped my interpretation. In any case the Psalms still support the “water above the heavens” view … Which came out much later than the flood (so the water canopy, if it existed, was still “up there” in David’s time). The book of Job describes mountains as “pillars of heaven” … Are they holding up heaven somehow? The flood story says windows were opened and closed letting the water flow out … This is different than any description of typical rain and is only found in this section of the Bible — why didn’t it just say clouds?

Sure the Ancients could see different levels of clouds, and yes they could see that water dropped out of them. But it isn’t hard for me to imagine that “blue sky” being full of water — why not?

Also in Gensis 1 it says he made the two great lights (sun and moon) and as an afterthought “he also made the stars”. Ken Ham remarked on this portion of Scripture on how matter 'o factly this was worded. “Oh and by the way I made very single star that ever existed… Just FYI.”

I noticed how funny it was worded too… Until I realized something. Maybe the ancients thought that the sun and moon were more impressive creations? After all they certainly do appear to be bigger and brighter — how were they to know that those tiny little dots are actually BIGGER than the sun and moon?

I suggest that the wording of the text reflects reality as the ancients saw it.

-Tim

I have argued this position in prior postings. I don’t understand Jon’s reluctance to see these ideas as compatible.

George Brooks

Tim

I don’t want to continue my disagreement with George through a third party, but it’s basically about two sides of the same coin - modern materialism - in my view.

You say you’ve (previously) read the “science” of Genesis as per the Creationists, and squeezed it to fit modern evidence so it can be said “See! The Bible teaches true science!”

Others tend to try that, see it doesn’t work, and say, “See, the Bible’s science is false! We therefore need to look behind it to find symbolic lessons!” One often finds by experience, however, that “symbolic” means “vague, generalised and possibly as unreliable as the science, since we’ve already seen how they botched the latter. They were just superstitious primitives, afrter all.”

I say that the ancient mindset (within which the Holy Spirit was working, in the Biblical case) saw reality through non-material eyes by preference. A number of writers point this out in depth, but I won’t bog you down with them here - some are mentioned on my blog, such as Owen Barfield, G K Beale, and others.

So in the case of Genesis 1, whilst we look at the world around us and see a material reality which, OK, could be taken as metaphorically symbolic of something spiritual like a temple, the ancient Hebrew looks and sees God’s cosmic temple - and if anything it’s the material structure that’s symbolic and metaphorical.

Now, I’m quite open to the likelihood that in describing the world through those eyes, they may well have believed, for example, that the sun rose over a stationary world - but more likely they just didn’t consider that too much. They were thinking more of the sun rising in the holy part of a temple with a properly laid flat floor, etc.

Following from that, one sees that modern attempts to reconstruct ancient cosmology are often just gathering descriptions from all round the Bible (a firmament from Genesis, a couple of pillars from Job), interpreting them materially instead of phenomenologically and theologically, and reconstructing a cosmology that never actually existed - which then gets critiqued against modern science and turned into misleading diagrams.

These are full of cosmic oceans but no clouds (which the Bible repeatedly says cause rain, hold “the waters”, wondrously support themselves without pillars and are also called “windows (or literally “lattices” or “nets”) of heaven”; they are full of solid domes, but no temple roof. Full of mountains called “pillars” but no actual temple pillars. And so on - a new and more detailed critique of the “solid firmament” here.

It’s less important to get the cosmology wrong than it is to miss the spiritual lessons, but one leads to the other: you end up being concerned mainly to teach the Bible better science (or, with the Creationists, twist the text AND the science to make them fit), instead of learning to see the cosmos as God’s temple, with all the many things that implies for Christian life.

PS - different tack. Another example of Fundamentalist thinking: to see the stars being made as an afterthought and not realise that, to the surrounding pagans, sun, moon and stars were gods. Genesis reminds everyone that they’re just God’s wonderful, but creaturely, lighting and calendar system.

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Jon, they were thinking of both simultaneously.

I certainly agree with this point.

George Broooks

George

they were thinking of both simultaneously.

How does one know that, rather than assuming it from our own way of seeing? For a start it’s easy to see that most people in the world now think of the sun rising without any spiritual imagery at all. What knowledge exists to exclude the reverse back then?

It’s also entirely possible to experience daily events without needing any “big picture” material model at all. I can even remember, as a small child, just experiencing the daily events of nature before I started to get influenced towards a “cosmology” either by mythological images of Chicken Licken and the Falling Moon, or by my father helpfully showing me pictures of globes and planets which broadened my horizons.

It’s therefore quite possible to conceive a of a culture that’s never thought of what the world would look like “from a long way off”, and which if asked what happened if you kept travelling, would shrug and say maybe the world went on forever, or maybe you fell off, or maybe you came to an ocean… but since nobody knew, one might as well get on with the here and now of keeping the gods propitious.

What we do know from the earliest map text is that to 8th century BC Babylonians, the world they drew consisted of just Babylon’s vicinity with a circular sea just outside its border (even though many people had been to far off Egypt and elsewhere!), outside which were 7 (mythical?) islands evenly spread like an astrological sign. That bespeaks a very different way of perceiving the world, and too often that hasn’t been explored, but interpreted in our own terms like “Hebrew science”, which makes about as much sense as “Hebrew democracy” or “Hebrew transgenderism”.

@Jon_Garvey

Really? You are skeptical?

If you write about a figurative Temple in VEILED references about physical elements believed by all the civilizations
around you (even if erroneously believed) … how could you conclude otherwise?

The firmament was NOT controversial in any of the ancient civilizations at the time.

George Brooks

George

Evidence (not for lack of controversy, but for unequivoical and consistent references to solidity across all cultures.)?

Each culture and epoch had its minor variations … and this would apply to the Biblical scribes as well.

But the Genesis discussion of Earth emerging from the waters of chaos, with a FIRM “firmament” to
separate the waters of earth from the waters of the sky was a common feature to all the ancient civilizations
of the Middle East. Even Egypt has a version more or less the same as the Sumerian one.

So while you can assert that the Bible scribes were discussing a veiled metaphor of the Cosmos as a
Temple, they were ALSO describing a very well established literal view of the Cosmos - - as erroneous as
it may have been.

I really don’t know how many times I need to repeat this message before you comprehend it.

George Brooks

I comprehend it George - I just dispute it. But apart from asserting the universality of a solid, physical firmament you’ve not actually provided any primary evidence. I don’t find it in the biblical account, in Enuma elish or in the Egyptian mythos.

I also find that what are often taken in those sources as erroneous physical descriptions are perfectly accurate theological or theogenic descriptions, within their respective mythos.

I see endless modern diagrams claiming to be exactly what the ancients believed. But when I do see ancient illustrations, they never look like that, and the descriptions never sound like that. But they clearly look like that to you, so I won’t say any more about it.

But to me talking about faulty science in an age when the universe was seen as a spiritual entity, the astronomical bodies as living spiritual beings and (in most cultures) when physical objects were, literally, gods is like talking about the scientific errors in Red Riding Hood or the Aboriginal Dreamtime myths.

Hey Jon.

Thanks for clarifying your viewpoint more clearly… That’s helpful.

I don’t disagree at all with your cosmic temple view — in Psalms 19 it say he made a “tabernacle for the sun” which makes some kind of sense for a cosmic temple.

The difficulty is that it’s hard to justify differences between what the Hebrews thought about reality versus what they wrote down. Let’s say for example that the Hebrews really did believe that there was some sort of solid dome structure that held back the waters — does that mean the truth of the Bible is in jeapordy? I don’t think so.

I can see your point about “trying to correct the science of the Bible”… But I’m not really trying to do that. When I read Genesis 1 scientifically, I realized that the science didn’t match up so I changed directions. Other people in the past have read Genesis 1 scientifically and used it for justification of a mythical “wall of water” that existed in the past and shortly went away after the Flood (despite the fact David still talks about it 1,500 years later after the Flood).

It could very well be that ideas of exploring the Earth farther, or pondering what lay beyond the sun, moon, stars etc., was almost fruitless to imagine because the prospect was beyond the abilities of the Hebrews. In Egyptian Hieroglyphs the sky is depicted as a Goddess that is curved, her toes on one end of the horizon and her head on the other. At night she “swallows” the sun, and then perhaps a new sun is born the next day? In first century AD, one of the first “science fiction” stories was written by a Greek man who envisioned a person taking a waterspout to the moon, where he had adventures up there. But even then it’s more so fantasy and imagination — not actually wondering what might lie up there, in a scientific sense.

So in short. I think one can at least say that reding Genesis 1 in a material sense (and demanding that it be read that way) is not very fruitful. I inserted my modern questions into the text, “How did God create? What does that say for physics?”… When in reality, that wasn’t its purpose and we have to deal with the fact that maybe (just maybe) science wasn’t on the agenda, when it comes to Genesis 1.

One can see obvious differences, by the way, with Genesis 1 and other creation stories. There’s a major attempt to “de-divine” the creation, and remove the “divine carcass reconstructions” of reality, by warring victor gods. I tend to think the “greater light-lesser light” terminology was incorporated, because the words for sun and moon were the same words for pagan Gods. Moses didn’t want to confuse his contemporary by saying “Yahweh made the pagan gods!”.

-Tim

EXACTLY! And as long as you agree that Genesis is in the same category as the Brothers Grimm, then you and I agree.

The naïve view of the Cosmos held by the Egyptians, Sumerians, Assyrians and Babylonians is pretty well established. I think it’s up
to you to tell us that Genesis somehow KNEW something better that nobody else knew.

I think where you say actual illustrations differ from the idealized images found in modern books – the actual images are even MORE
primitive. Most everyone has seen the Egyptian images where a woman’s naked body is arched over the earth. . . she is covered with
stars . . . she is the SKY.

Sincerely,

George Brooks

the actual images are even MORE primitive. Most everyone has seen the Egyptian images where a woman's naked body is arched over the earth. . . she is covered with stars . . . she is the SKY.

That’s my whole point George: in Egypt, the sky is a goddess, not a hard shell symbolised by a goddess. Egyptians look up to a clear blue sky, and say the reality is the goddess Nut. She’s not necessarily solid, any more than the air god Shu (funnily enough “air” is holding her up, rather than “pillars” - both literal, or both divine participation?.

To conceive the same goddess as the wide blue sky, and a female human representation in a tomb, is actually a rather sophisticated mental exercise that links phenomena to deity, rather than to materials. It’s “primitive” only once you make the decision to reject the Egyptian pantheon, and say that it’s more advanced to link phenomena to material concepts like “solid crystal”.

Again, I make the point that the Egyptian tomb paintings, or the Babylonian world map, are what Egyptians and Babylonians saw the world to be: translate that into a modern diagram that purports to be what they “really” meant (ie in physical terns) and you’ve just subverted their worldview with our own.

@Jon_Garvey

But Jon… in either case, the ancients did not have the CORRECT view of the Cosmos.

If you want to, AGAIN, assert that they were presenting a veiled reference to a cosmic temple … that’s fine.
But it certainly isn’t ANY kind of presentation on how the cosmos was ACTUALLY arranged.

Hence, Evangelical Christians should be at peace with letting to of interpreting Genesis as a science book.

Right?

George Brooks

Tim, I agree thoroughly with your conclusion in the last 2 paragraphs, and add (to clarify what I agree with, anyway) that reading Genesis to endorse their science, or to denigrate their science, is equally unhelpful.

Your para 3 mentions 3 scenarios, which I think helpful. The Egyptians look at sky (just a blue appearance) and really see (by faith) Nut (in the nute!), as we see (by scientific faith!) water vapour, etc. The Greek guy is, by contrast, doing imaginative fantasy on Aristotelian astronomy - in which, from what I know, a man on the moon “couldn’t happen”. Thirdly you have us doing scientific wondering about materials.

I suggest the Hebrews would have understood the first best - but as you say, they de-divinised it as God’s sacred space, and wrote about that. Such a conclusion forms the basis for a possible science of materials, I agree (“what’s his temple made of then, if it’s not Tiamat’s guts?”).

Maybe they had got as far as thinking about answers - which would almost certainly be wrong, or at least partial - though the OT has a surprisingly good concept of the water cycle if you chase the various references. But if any of those wrong ideas slipped into Genesis, it would be of no detriment to the truth of the message.

As it happens, though, I think by reading science into what isn’t trying to be science, we make quite sensible texts seem ridiculous. In my opinion the solid raqia is one such projection.

Ah - there is a CORRECT view of the cosmos, is there, and we now have it? That would be something like “We now know that the universe is really nothing but a vast collection of matter and energy”. A shame we don’t know what “matter” or “energy” are, but hey.

Still, you now make it clear that, in your view, the cosmos was not created to be sacred space for the glory of God, and that Genesis was wrong to represent it as such. I fundamentally disagree, and say that that revelation is the basis for truly understanding reality. I believe it because I’m a Christian, and Jesus believed it.

“In our world," said Eustace, "a star is a huge ball of flaming gas." "Even in your world, my son, that is not what a star is, but only what it is made of.”
(C S Lewis - probably inspired by Owen Barfield's profound insights here)
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Hey Mr. Jon…

I read your dissertation of the “solid raqia” and I think it’s well thought out. Couple thoughts I would like to add, however.

  1. The Psalms DO say “waters above the heavens” … What do you do with this passage? One possible interpretation would be to say that the authors referred to the “heavens” as “waters” simply because of the blue color?

  2. Do you agree or not agree that “firmament” (which comes from the Latin “firmamentum” meaning strengthening, brace, support — often used as construction terms) is closer to the meaning of “raqia” versa “expanse” which is “empty space”…?

  3. Do you believe that the definition of “firmament” is conflicting to your cosmic temple view? To me it rather “supports” your view, because firmamentum is an architecture term (akin to “heavenly pillars” in Job and “tabernacles containing the sun” in the Psalms).

  4. You make a valid point on what would be the purpose of “water above the heavens” when the ancients could clearly tell that clouds contained water, and that water “goes up” to create more clouds (the hydrological cycle). Even so, that doesn’t negate the possibility that ancients believed the “blue appearance” was water, regardless of what they believed it’s purpose was for.

  5. This might just be a remnant of “overtly materialistic thinking”, but my dad thinks “firmament” is closer to the original meaning, rather than “expanse”. Why? It’s because it’s odd that God says he makes the “expanse” which is essentially “nothing”. And then later gives that “nothing” a name. Why did God give empty space (which already existed anyway) a name? At least in the firmament situation it has more of a tangible substance.

  6. What is your motivation in being against a “solid raqia”, rather than just scholarly discussion? You seem to have no problem accepting that the Ancients described a geocentric universe and a flat earth (which both today aren’t scientifically accurate) … So why do you have a problem with a “solid raqia” being in the Bible? Keep in mind, I’m not blaming any ancient person for believing in Geocentrism and a flat earth (they didn’t have a lot of information available to them and even today we say the sun rises).

P.S. You said somewhere about the mythical flat earth so I wish to clarify. I don’t believe the Columbus narrative that he was trying to prove to his peers that the earth was spherical… That’s a big misconception. What actually took place was Columbus having a dispute with his peers about the breadth of the earth… Not its shape. Conventional wisdom of the day (by estimated calculation) believes the earth was 24,000 miles in circumference, Columbus believed it was 16,000 miles. His peers advised against the trip because the ocean was bigger than he thought — they doubted he would cross it.

I think it was somewhere around the 3rd century AD (could be incorrect however) that the majority of educated people believed in a spherical earth (people didn’t believe in a flat earth, at least in written records, in the Middle Ages).

-Tim

Hi Tim - I’ll try… sorry to hog space here.

(1)(4) “Waters above the heavens” are fine if clouds are the waters, of course. The “sky” from top to bottom is what separates them from sea (definition of firmament). Blueness is indeed, however, one reason (even in ancient times, inconsistently) for talking about stone up there - though they may have meant colour, rather than solidity. In Mesopotamia the lowest heaven was jasper (clear/yellow), then blue lapiz, then a couple of others I’ve forgotten in red, etc. Water’s only blue when it reflects the blue sky, so a mental connection doesn’t seem inevitable.

(2)(5) English “Firmament” is certainly “firm” (except in “Old Man Adam and his Chillun”, when it ain’t nothin’ but a fancy word for water!) but is a translation, of course, which coloured the issue in the west early on. Septuagint “stereoma” preceded it, and also means “firm” - but was, of course written within the much later world of Aristotelian astronomy.

The “raqia” root means “something stretched out”, or sometimes “beaten out” to cover something. Etymologically the root can link to metal, but etymology is a dangerous tool and context and usage is more important. One poetic Bible passage talks of the heavens “stretched out like a tent”, which has the “stretching” rather than the “beaten metal” in mind. But you have to ask if the writer thought the sky was cloth, or if he thought it was God’s sacred tabernacle, or if he was just being a poet. He wasn’t thinking of a metal shell, though.

So “expanse” is not “nothing” - even the Egyptian air god Shu is a “something” stretching up to support Nut. “Expanse” then isn’t a great translation, but we don’t have a word for something-stretched-out.

Incidentally, our own English word “sky” derives from “cloud”. Interesting implications about our own beliefs if etymology governs things, and with translations of Genesis!

(3) I agree - and in fact, I think it may be one source of the problem: they describe a temple in temple archtecture terms, and temples have roofs (or tabernacles have fly-sheets, as above). The word used for “lights” in Gen 1 for another example, is the same one often used for the lamps (and nothing else) in the tabernacle in Exodus. That doesn’t mean they believed materialistically that the sun and moon were branches on a menorah, any more than the Egyptians believed you could go to some viewpoint where the sky looked like a naked lady.

The buzz-word in Owen Barfield’s book is “participation” - where things correspond at some deep level of reality - perhaps like a strong Reformed view of bread and wine truly “being” the body and blood of Christ, only spiritually and through faith.

(6) My main issue in this is that reading back Post-Enlightenment worldviews back into Genesis stops us thinking ourselves into their hugely different mindset, so that we badly misunderstand the text.Until folks like Walton and Beale, the temple imagery that’s key to Genesis 1 and unlocks much else in the Bible just didn’t register in the arguments about whether it was “right” (creationists) or “wrong” (scientists). Though Cosmas pretty uniquely discovered it in the 6th century, and then took it too literally!

So a the very term “geocentrism”, as usedback in the Copernican debate, already has that scientific “view from nowhere” bias. Genesis 1 is geocentric (though theocentric before that) in the sense that its point of reference is earth, just as the Babylonians only put Babylonia on their world map. Both put the world near the bottom of things, “things” being primarily a spiritual category.To assume that they therefore had a concept of a geocentric universe that they taught in schools, and would gratefully have received correction from Galileo is anachronistic.

A comparison would be reading about the Australian aboriginal “Dreamtime” worldview and trying to understand it, rather than dismiss it as “primitive and stupid.” You soon realise that saying they believe in flat earth tells you less than nothing about their world. The Hebrew worldview is probably a little easier for us, which is good because it forms the basis of our religion. You can’t apply Scripture rightly to our world unless you’ve got a reasonable idea of what it meant in its own.

PS - Columbus: absolutely right. For any visiting skeptics, the date for near universal acceptance of round earth was closer to 300 BC rather than AD. Of Christian writers only Lactantius (probably on anti-philosophical grounds) and good old seafarer Cosmas (for a mixture of reasons) wrote about a flat earth.