God's Morality and Justice

I’m not seeing a judgment on the Temple in Mark. The fig tree story isn’t about the Temple; in the Old Testament a fig tree is repeatedly a figure for Israel, not for the Temple. It indicates that the time of Israel’s “bearing fruit” is coming to an end. Th cleansing of the Temple is not a condemnation of the Temple; to the contrary, it is an affirmation of the Temple against those who were misusing it by cutting off access by Gentiles via using the area that was set apart for them as a marketplace.

Sure there was: that area was designated as the Court of the Gentiles. Whether or not anyone had ever allowed it to be used that way is irrelevant; by turning it into a marketplace they had ruined a visual lesson the Temple conveyed: the Court of the Gentiles wrapped all the way around the Court of Israel (which included the Court of Women), thus portraying Israel’s position as the spiritual center of the world and its task of bringing blessing to all the other nations. In fact the total area of the Court of the Gentiles was greater than the area of all the rest, which itself was a message – but filled with merchandise, the message was subverted/perverted.

He wasn’t judging the Temple, He was judging its misuse and those who had established that misuse.

The destruction of the Temple in Mark’s presentation is a consequence of judgment on those in charge of it, not on the Temple itself. This matches the parable that follows, of the vineyard (Israel; cf. Isaiah 5) and the wicked tenants; the vineyard isn’t judged, just the tenants.

Well, yes – He was pissed that the “guest room” in His Dad’s House wasn’t being used for the intended guests. As the Heir, Jesus acted on His Dad’s behalf to clear the guest room.

In Mark that reads as a forecast; there’s no indication it was about judgment.

Listeners would not have missed the connection to the Temple as God’s House and likely would have made the connection that the leaders were “devouring” it as well.

That’s pretty clear from the Greek. The phrase “τῷ ὄρει τούτῳ”, literally “the mountain this (one)”. But it’s also a play on a common phrase used by rabbis to compliment a teacher’s stature/wisdom, “he removes (or, “is a remover of”) mountains”. Jesus would have been understood as saying that the least of His disciples had the same stature as the great rabbis.

Jesus is riffing off Isaiah 5; He uses almost the exact same opening words. Now at that point the idea of judging the Temple might come in since in Isaiah the vineyard itself gets torn down, but Isaiah is clear that this judgment is not on the land but on the Israelites who were to have produced “fine fruit” (justice and righteousness). If the Isaiah parable is applied, though, the judgment is on the whole House of Israel.

But in Jesus’ version the vineyard isn’t destroyed, which would have gotten His hearers buzzing because they would have known the Isaiah parable quite well – in His version, it’s the tenants that get destroyed and the vineyard is preserved. The leaders recognized this, since it says " they perceived that he had told the parable against them".

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Through the process of canonization. The degree of unanimity from the bottom up and the rapidness of the process points to the Holy Spirit being at work.

You negate scripture at will, setting yourself above both it and God as pleases you – and that is not just my observation. That makes your “authentic” belief most definitely “personal” because it shows you are making up your own religion.

3 posts were split to a new topic: Roymond and Richard

I don’t see that. If anything @St.Roymond comes across as an informed authority, but not the supreme authority.

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Change the subject much? How is what happens to a body of water not merciful to demons? especially when those pigs were undoubtedly salvaged by people nearby?

Really? Not attributing demonic possession to demons is a scripture-stopper.

You’re doing the same thing they do – forcing your personal worldview on the text.

No, it doesn’t, unless you think that Samuel became a god after he died, and that demons count as gods.

You read about the trouble the Israelites had with Canaanitic religion, and you don’t see why those nations needed driving out or wiped out?

That’s all meaningless; it’s no different than YECers wanting there to be science in the Bible – trying to make the Bible fit your worldview and provide information usless for the message.

I don’t care – it’s meaningless speculation.

Also meaningless as it has no usefulness for understanding the text and is thus a waste of time – the sort of useless speculation we are warned against.

You seem to think Jesus wants us to use science as an excuse to throw out any part of scripture you please.

No, but you certainly think you can us it to dismiss the supernatural.

The Orthodox approach is rather stringent as well. I knew an Orthodox priest who assisted in an exorcism who found the entire investigation process very thorough – and wearying.

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Certainly! No demons, no Scripture.

You badly misunderstand everything I am attempting to explain. Science doesn’t have the tools to examine the supernatural. That doesn’t mean the supernatural doesn’t exist. Many scientists are people of faith, but that doesn’t mean that science has the tools to examine the supernatural. If you think otherwise, explain how science can examine supernatural claims such as Intelligent Design. It is God of the Gaps, a placeholder for scientific ignorance. And that is bad theology.

Epilepsy can be diagnosed and there are medications for it.

Change spelling much? Being forced to ride on flying pigs isn’t what I would call merciful.

Most ID folks don’t acknowledge that ID is creationism. Of course, they are not consistent.

What makes you think that?

What makes you think that?

Not meaningless at all.

But Rahab and her family got a free pass. Nobody forced the Israelites to use Canaanite religion.

There seems to be a nest of demons behind every tree.

Here is a deleted scene from the horrifying documentary “Jesus Camp,” availably on Hoopla. Pastor Becky Fisher who runs a camp for children and her buddy discuss demonic manifestations in the unfortunate children sent to attend her camp.

  • And …??? What does that prove? That “demon possession” doesn’t exist? You talk as if it does.
    Cite cases or research studies.
    ========================
  • You jumped right over the fact that the Episcopalian and Roman Catholic denominations, and some Sunni Muslims include “demon/jinn” influences in their vocabulary.
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  • You, anti-YECs, and atheists must get a lot of “anti-demon” mileage out of that video.
  • IMO, “Jesus Camp” and their ilk are misguided Christians doing a lot of harm.
  • BTW, it does not escape my notice that “Jesus Camp” Christians seem to be a “nest” of YECs, Jesus Camp. Why am I not surprised?
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Yes, Elohim means God or gods. It can also mean divine.

The demons might have enjoyed it, but what about the owner of the pigs and the common folks? Pigs are unclean animals to Jews. The water would have been considered contaminated, and animals crap when they die. Who would have salvaged the pigs? Not the Jews, and they wouldn’t even want the hides to make footballs. Do you think they called pagans to remove the pigs? And the swineherd would have been in deep doo-doo when he reported the loss to the owner. Jesus seems to prioritize demons over people here.

That a diagnosis of epilepsy is not a “brain-stopper” as you seemed to imply. btw, there is one form of epilepsy that is characterized by a frequent change of religions!

Yes Liturgies do mention the devil. I’ve never denied the existence of the devil, although I’m frequently accused of that around these parts. Other religions have demons, not just the ones you mention. e.g. there are Hindu demons. But that’s “brand x.”

Are you sure? I am not a philosophical naturalist. You know who else dismisses ID? Francis Collins, the founder of BioLogos.

  • Au contraire. It proves that comprehensive physical, medical, and psychiatric assessments are useful, and appropriate to rule out non-demonic causes before undertaking any exorcism; but–as I said and you ignored–NOT that demonic activity is totally out of the realm of possibility.
  • You seem to preach that all human behavior has natural causes, and your brain stops there, And I say: Balderdash!
  • Wave your hand all you want. There’s more to demonic activity and influences than the existence of “The Devil”, a.k.a. Satan.
  • If you want to play: “Name all the demons in all the religions, past and present”, find somebody else to play with. I simply pointed out that being a proponent of one of the “Abrahamic Faith” traditions is not a pathway to avoiding the issue.
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LOL

They were in pagan territory – why else would there have been pigs?

Do you think medical schools should teach about demonic activity? Should doctors consider it in their practice? Have you ever discussed this with providers? At what point should they cease searching for a natural cause for illness?

Bovine coprolite!

The city named might have been in Israel. Israel was under occupation by Rome, so it is plausible they would have raised piggies.

No.

No.

No.

Never.

  • Any more questions?
  • If not, I consider this topic exhausted.
  • I think I’ll write to Rev. Luigi Gioia and ask him if your Diocese has an exorcist.
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And when a natural cause does not present itself, is it reasonable to believe a supernatural cause exists?

On a somewhat related note, Keener, Brown, and May went at whether miracles can be credibly documented in the realm of medical healing

  • Only 8:48 in, and I laughed. A wrong diagnosis and the discovery of a subdural hematoma followed by immediate medical draining and subsequent recovery, as well as May’s subsequent pursuit of a medical degree, certainly impresses me as a remarkable and convenient sequence of events, which does not rule out “the hand of God”.
  • Sirach 38:1-15:
    • Concerning Physicians and Health
      • 1 Honor the physician with the honor due him, according to your need of him, for the Lord created him;
        2 for healing comes from the Most High,and he will receive a gift from the king.
        3 The skill of the physician lifts up his head, and in the presence of great men he is admired.
        4 The Lord created medicines from the earth, and a sensible man will not despise them.
        5 Was not water made sweet with a tree in order that his power might be known?
        6 And he gave skill to men that he might be glorified in his marvelous works.
        7 By them he heals and takes away pain;
        8 the pharmacist makes of them a compound. His works will never be finished;
        and from him health is upon the face of the earth.
        9 My son, when you are sick do not be negligent, but pray to the Lord, and he will heal you.
        10 Give up your faults and direct your hands aright, and cleanse your heart from all sin.
        11 Offer a sweet-smelling sacrifice, and a memorial portion of fine flour, and pour oil on your offering, as much as you can afford.
        12 And give the physician his place, for the Lord created him; let him not leave you, for there is need of him.
        13 There is a time when success lies in the hands of physicians,
        14 for they too will pray to the Lord that he should grant them success in diagnosis and in healing, for the sake of preserving life.
        15 He who sins before his Maker, may he fall into the care of a physician.
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Nice reference, I was not familiar with the passage. I had a charismatic friend years ago who believed heavily in healing prayer, but didn’t seem aware that Paul’s instruction to Timothy, for his stomach issues, didn’t include prayer.

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  • Personally, I wonder: “If no natural cause of an event presents itself, is it reasonable to assume there is no cause?”
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