Gerald presents the evidence for a worldwide flood

Faith & Science Conversation
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You say “those who reject God’s Word” but what I think you mean is those who don’t interpret it as you do. But if you believe only those scientists who profess to understand the Bible as containing the only reliable science results, you are not looking for the truth. You are simply mining the literature for confirmation of the bias you begin with. What you believe about geology is entirely secondary to what you assume about the Bible, just as it is for that extremely small subset of geologists who receive their degrees from YEC colleges.

There are plenty of good Christians on this site who can give well reasoned defense of different assumptions about the Bible. When you justify a position because the Bible says it’s so, you are staking a claim to theological expertise that exceeds their own. What is that based on?

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I’m sorry if I have miss led you. I don’t not believe that there are “Christians” who have assumed this idea. But I also believe what the Bible says about the last days.
Jesus said, “there shall arise false Christs and false prophets”. Matthew 24:24.
There is a similar warning in 1 Timothy 4:1-2, and in 2 Timothy 4:3-4. Now please consider 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3.

These verses are not referring to those who have not accepted Christ at one time. They are talking about someone who has accepted Christ. They are supposed to be Christians.

But they have rejected Christ. They have rejected God’s Word. They believe in the lies told them by their enemy, not their friend, the devil. They will not “endure” sound doctrine.

And so there will be “Christians” who have been deceived into not accepting what God has said. And the only way that we can know for sure on which side of the fence we are standing, is by knowing what God’s Word says.

But you make the accusation that “I don’t do that”. I don’t do what? Attend to the things that are true? What have I failed to attend that is true?

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A question, if you don’t mind. Do you believe that there will be those who will reject what God has said? 2 Timothy 4:3-4; That there will be “Christians” who will not “endure sound doctrine”. 2 Timothy 4:3-4.

Would you not agree that these texts are referring to those who are supposed to be Christians?
I’m pretty sure you would. So why would you doubt what I have said? Since I am only repeating what God has told us in His Word?

You say that the Christians who reject the Bible narrative about the flood, are correct because they are backed up by those who are atheists.

I will openly admit that I don’t have a degree in geology. I do have to depend upon what others have said. But. As I pointed out, there are Christian geologists who say that the evidence supports what the Bible has said.

And it is after all one looking at evidence and deciding that it points to billions of years. This is necessary to support the assumption of evolution

But those Christian scientists are also looking at this same evidence and they agree with what they Bible says.
They see what has been passed down through the historical records from other civilizations which also confirms the biblical narrative.

Why would you ignore this proof? You have the Bible. You have Christians scientists. You have other civilizations. You even have scientists who all confirm that there were historical floods that were massive. But they refuse to accept that the flood was worldwide. Why would you not accept the fact that there are atheists who are scientists who just can’t bring themselves to admit that the flood could have been worldwide because this would mean that the Bible is true. So they go to the edge but don’t take the plunge.

Once again. Are you or aren’t you a Christian?
You see I am not the one who has is saying that those who reject the World Wide flood, are wrong. I am only saying I am accepting what the Bible, the Christians who are scientists, the atheists who are scientists,(halfway admitting the flood), and the historical records of the civilizations that have spoken of the worldwide flood, have said.
And not what the ones who reject the World Wide flood say.

Now to my understanding, I have more sources who are in support of the World Wide Flood. What do you think? Oh, and why do you think about this?

Oh, if this is not enough, there are scientists who have said that although there was not enough water on earth to make a worldwide flood, they now believe that there was a planet-wide flood on the planet Mars. And it has little to no water seen presently.
Besides this, there are scientists who say that there was not enough water on enough water way back when, yet they claim that the water of the earth was brought by asteroids.
So why is it not possible that more water was brought by more asteroids. It is a plausible answer as to whether or not there was enough water for a worldwide flood.
They said that the evidence of marine fossils on the high mountain ranges does not suggest that the waters covered the earth. But yes it is a possibility. They declare that the mountains were too high and that there was not enough water. But they also declare that the mountains were pushed up to their present hight. And if the mountains were lower, there is still the valid assumption that once a mountain range, always a mountain range. And this can also mean that the waters were high enough to cover the lower mountain ranges.
There is more than enough evidence to show that there was a worldwide flood. Just as the Bible, historical records, Scientists who are Christians and scientists who used to be atheists, who say that the flood happened.

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I’m not but I respect those who are more when they can give good reasons to justify their theology and do not dismiss the evidence of their senses or the valid.findings of science.

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Gerald,if you are comfortable with a young earth and a literal worldwide flood, that is fine and good. I really don’t think it matters in your daily walk with Christ, and while you may also differ in your opinion on that part, it is fine with me.
One question, though. What is the underlying motivation for you presenting your position here, and calling the faith of fellow Christians questionable? I wonder if you feel threatened by what scientific claims mean to your worldview and are defensive due to that threat. Or are you just being a “good soldier” in the literal six day young earth creationist army, doing battle with the enemy? If the former, I wish you peace and if there is anything we can discuss to help you achieve it, let’s talk about it. If the latter, I suggest you sharpen your sword and bring specific arguments to the table that can be discussed and critiqued. If a geologist has a finding supporting your position, bring it forth and let’s have a look at it. Whether he is Christian by the way is irrelevant but the quality of the work is not.

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First you are not the judge of this.
Second you just can not resist slandering Christian geologists that don’t agree with you.
Third, your references are not about science. Science didn’t exist when the NT was written.
Your last reference 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 says:

This is discussing the end times of course, but the point is the false teachers are “asserting that the day of the Lord has already come” which I don’t think any geologist is guilty of doing.

If you can’t discuss the science just realize what you are arguing is your interpretation is right and everyone else’s is wrong. Since interpretation is not inspired there is no way to prove yours is correct no matter how much you want it to be. And your interpretation, BTW, started with Ellen White and is therefore suspect. You really should check out some SDA sites to find out the reason she resisted evolution in the first place.

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47

So, you are going to throw out the part of God’s Word that says we should believe what He says, and substitute, what others have said that contradicts God’s Word, as the truth? I’m admonishing that we should accept God’s Word. (What we are talking about, is straight forward.). But you are suggesting that we forget about what God’s Word says.

Are you sure you are wanting to continue heading in the direction you are going?
What about these verses? 2 Timothy 3:13. Or Isaiah 5:20.

So if you are a Christian, you should understand that there is evil. And this evil is aligned against God’s truth. And satans goal is to cause us to lose faith in God and His Word.

So why is it so hard to accept the fact that the scientists of this world, who are atheists, and some who claim to be Christian, would be used by the devil to deceive us?

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Mark, the evidence is there for all to see. Granted there are those of us, who are not qualified to discern what the evidence says. So we look to those who are. But, there are those who are would forget that there are scientists who are Christians and they say that the evidence does support a global flood.

Just because their decisions contradict what the atheists scientists and that of some Christians who agree with them, does not mean that the claims of the scientists who support what they Bible says, is of any less value.

It may be claimed that the scientists who are Christians, are being moved by, their emotions, their selfishness to be right, that they are money grubbing liars who are willing to lie about the evidence.

But couldn’t the same be said about the atheists who reject the Bible.
There have been those on both sides that have gone way to the left to prove what they believe.

But there are those who haven’t. Which is why I brought up the fact that there have been atheists who now reject evolution and accept what the Bible says.

And since we are Christians, since we claim that God exists and that He gave us His Word to communicate with us, we should trust His proven Word.

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Gerald,
I have watched your exchanges and you use this phrase often. Have you ever considered the fact that there no part of today’s Bible that was directly communicated by God without a priest of scribe’s hands on it? And what did the prophets and Jesus say about the presets and scribes? And who had Jesus killed?
Best Wishes, Shawn

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No. You are right. I am not the Judge. God’s Word is. And it has spoken. God said that He created in 6 days, and rested on the Sabbath.

You say that science did not exist in the New Testament. I disagree. The term “science” may not have been used. It is after all an English translation. But the idea of reason, has been around, even in the Old Testament when God calls us to “reason together with Him”. Isaiah 1:18.

And I submit that God’s Word is the the last say so.
But He does not mind for us to confirm. And again, there are scientists who are Christian, who have attended the same schools as those of the scientists who are atheists, and some who call themselves Christians, and they have graduated and received the same letters following their last names. But when they look at the same evidence that those who reject the global flood, saying that this evidence does not support, this global flood, the scientists who are Christians, say it does.

You will admit, that neither were present when the flood did or didn’t take place. So all they are doing is looking after the fact and making guesses as to what that evidence is saying.

There are things that the atheists say, proves that the flood did not happen. One of which is that the time frame for a young earth does not allow occurrences such as the Grand Canyon to have formed.
But a more recent very impressive canyon was formed in a short time that was on the verge of becoming as grand as the Grand Canyon.

https://answersingenesis.org/geology/mount-st-helens/

As you can see, the atheists and some who call themselves “Christians”, come right after the Christian scientists who believe in the biblical account of the global flood, and they begin to declare, once again that the global flood believers are wrong with their interpretations.

But once again. No one was around when the global flood took place. But there are historical records, that of the Bible, and of other civilizations that do mention the flood. And they are the closest to the occurrence.

The fact of the matter is there is more than enough reason to accept the Bible’s narrative.

And to deny this just because someone who was not there and who have only given explanations as to why it could not have been possible, is irrational. .

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Shawn, this may go over well with those who do not think about the fact that those who wrote the Bible were around long before those who rejected the Messiah. Therefore, this has no bearing upon what the Scribes and Pharisees did to Christ. Even more, there were other Scribes and Pharisees of Christ’s time, who did accept Christ.
They did so because they believed what the Old Testament said about the Messiah. Just as we should about what God has said about what happened.

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reason != science

Well at least you admit the YEC scientists are just guessing.

Mount St. Helens is nothing like the Grand Canyon. One was an explosion the other was slow erosion. The evidence is there as plain as the nose on your face. And since your bring up the Grand Canyon you need to look into the Nile River Canyon. It is impossible to explain in a young earth.

Why so? It is possible to explain all of the evidence that God has revealed in His creation using science. Nobody is saying the flood is not possible, just that it didn’t happen.

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I did not say that reason is not science. I said while reason was around it was not called science
Are they guessing? Why yes. If I am willing to admit this, are you willing to admit the same?
Where the Creationists come out ahead is that their guessing is backed up with evidence. The Bible. The other historical records about the flood. The creation scientists who look at the evidence and say that it supports the Bible’s narrative for the flood.
That there are scientists who used to be atheists who now have stopped believing in evolution, and they believe that the evidence supports Creation.

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Once again. There are those who are Christian. They are reputable scientists. And they say that the evidence does support a global flood.

You miss the point about the new canyon. It was formed in months. Not thousands of years. And this shows that the Grand Canyon did not need millions of years to have been formed.

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Gerald, you’ve already gotten a warning about this. Questioning people’s Christianity because they disagree with you about Bible interpretation violates our forum guidelines. If you do this again, you’re going to lose your right to post here. Stick to discussing ideas, not evaluating who is a real Christian and who isn’t. Those are the rules.

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The canyons are not the same so one says nothing about the other in terms of how long it took.

I noticed you ignored the Nile River Canyon. Here is a link for you. The author is a Christian. But I warn you that reading this is dangerous to YEC belief. :wink:

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Gerald, would your position be that all of these must refer to worldwide events?

So He destroyed all living things which were on the face of the ground: both man and cattle, creeping thing and bird of the air. They were destroyed from the earth. Only Noah and those who were with him in the ark remained alive. (Genesis 7:23)

Therefore its name is called Babel, because there the Lord confused the language of all the earth; and from there the Lord scattered them abroad over the face of all the earth. (Genesis 11:9)

The famine was over all the face of the earth, and Joseph opened all the storehouses and sold to the Egyptians. And the famine became severe in the land of Egypt. So all countries came to Joseph in Egypt to buy grain, because the famine was severe in all lands. (Genesis 41:56–57)

And the locusts went up over all the land of Egypt and rested on all the territory of Egypt. They were very severe; previously there had been no such locusts as they, nor shall there be such after them. For they covered the face of the whole earth, so that the land was darkened; and they ate every herb of the land and all the fruit of the trees which the hail had left. (Exodus 10:14–15)

Do you think anyone who suggests there was a regional flood or a regional scattering or a regional famine or a regional plague is rejecting the Bible’s plain teaching?

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Hi Gerald,

You seem to believe that the Bible reveals every sort of truth, including scientific, and not a word is to be doubted. Am I understanding you correctly?

Based on this understanding of inerrancy as applied to Genesis 7, you then claim that geologists should be alert to the indisputable existence of worldwide flood in recent history that covered the very highest mountains, and when they see the traces of large floods, they should be attributed to the Genesis flood. Before I go on, let me check again: am I understanding you correctly?

Now let me ask a third question: is there any reason to think that this logical method cannot be applied to the entirety of the Holy Scripture?

And a final question: can you show how that logical method (that presumably should apply to all of Scripture) applies to these verses–without making any reference to the science of man?

He shakes the earth from its place and makes its pillars tremble. - Job 9:6
When the earth and all its people quake, it is I who hold its pillars firm. - Psalm 75:3

Using the logic you applied to Genesis 7, I would geophysicists to have found evidence of prominent pillars on which the earth rests. What geological reports should I be looking at?

In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened. - Genesis 7:11

This verse is smack-dab in the middle of the chapter that you are telling me is 100% accurate in every way, including scientifically and historically. So I ask: what geophysical structures are being referred to by windows in the heaven? There are words in the Hebrew Bible for clouds and rain, but they are not used here. So what, in the scientific sense, is being referred to?

Thanks,
Chris Falter

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I have questioned no one’s Christianity. I have simply stated what the Bible says will happen to some in the last days. It was Christ who said that in the last days, many will come to Him. And they will call HIm Lord. Lord. But the Bible says that He will answer them, "Why call me Lord. and do not the things I ask: Luke 6:46.

Jesus is the One who said that there will be those who will be false Christ’s and false prophets. That there will be false teachers.
I have not declared anyone to fit into any category.

I only told everyone what to look for so that we can examine ourselves and that we need to do this with God’s Word. Not with what we think, or what anyone else thinks.
Through His Word we can know whether or not we stand with Christ or not. And we can use His Word to know, how we can return should we find that we are lacking.

But as to whether or not I will stand up, or compromise let it be known that I won’t. God’s Word says what it says. And I have not declared anyone to be or not to be Christian. I only point out that the Bible declares what we need to look for to know where we stand. What to look for so that we will not be deceived.

So you determine whether or not you want me on this site. Because I will only tell what God want’s me to tell. And not compromise His truth. If I do, then I endanger my eternal life.

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Well let me provide a few examples where you did.

Putting air quotes around Christian indicates you really mean “not a Christian.”

And then there is this.

Your eternal life is determined by your belief in a risen Christ who died for your sins. I am pretty sure there are no questions about origins on the admission test.

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