Gerald presents the evidence for a worldwide flood

Faith & Science Conversation
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Okay, I know, the “scientists” do not go as far as to admit that there was a worldwide flood. But, the question is why they do not.

Especially since there are various historical manuscripts from different civilizations that mentions the flood in one form or another. Some mention it to have been worldwide.

I would like to point out that of the many marine fossils that have been found on the highest of the mountain ranges all over the world.

Now some would say, that the marine fossils does not prove that there was a worldwide flood. That the earth was pushed up to the hights that they are.
But, I would like to add, that these mountain ranges were still mountains at the time of Noah.That even if the were lower at the time, the waters still would have covered them. Maybe the amount of water needed was not as much as first thought. But the mountains would still have been covered.

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How does an ancient culture know what happened worldwide? They would know what happened in their local area, which would be “the world” to them.

For a great example of the many problems with the global flood see

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This is also explained by the fact that many civilizations have lived through catastrophic flooding. It doesn’t really fit with the entire world and all but eight people being destroyed by said flood. If everyone died, there would be no historical record of the flood from other civilizations.

I’ve read about the flood in China you reference. If I remember correctly, it was caused when a natural dam caused by an earthquake broke, releasing a wall of blocked river water. It was not caused by 40 days and 40 nights of rain.

But it wasn’t rain that caused the flooding, Granger says. The scope of this flood was “500 times larger than a flood we might expect… from a massive rainfall event.” So the team went farther upriver and found evidence of a giant earth and rockslide caused by an earthquake that dammed the Yellow River around the same time.
ccording to Granger, the Yellow River backed up behind the dam for “6 to 9 months until the lake reached the top of the dam,” and broke through. David Cohen from the University of Taiwan says it has been hard for him to grasp the size and strength of the flood that followed. “This must be about one-third the height of the Empire State Building,” he said. “I tried to imagine that amount of water just violently bursting forth out of this dam.” To imagine the power of the flood, it helps to understand the extent of its impact, Cohen says. "Looking at models from known floods, we think that it could have easily reached 2000 or more kilometers downstream."https://www.voanews.com/silicon-valley-technology/new-evidence-found-ancient-flood-china

Something predicted and well-explained by tectonic plate theory and the models geologists have developed of how the earth’s surface has changed over billions of years. A global flood does not explain how more coccoliths than could have possibly existed in the ocean at one time (they have to live near the surface because they depend on photosynthesis) to form the 350 foot thick White Cliffs of Dover on the eastern coast of England at the exact same time as the sandstone in Zion National Park which was allegedly formed by the Flood.

You can’t presume the truth of a recent global flood covering the mountains and then use the fact that sea creatures are found in mountains as proof of the truth that the flood covered the mountains. That’s begging the question and it’s a logical fallacy.

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@Gerald, I’m a missionary kid and we also interpreted the presence of fossils in the nearby plateau in Niger, West Africa, as evidence of the flood. It turns out it was related to plate tectonics (we actually had a geologist come out with the mission and explained some of it to me) but it’s pretty interesting stuff–it’s really neat to read how all this works. Thanks.

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I was a YEC for 45+ years and geology was the main reason I’m not anymore. Let me geek out.
The theory of plate tectonics is only about as old as I am.
We can now monitor the speed and direction the plates are moving in relation to each other using earth based sensors and GPS, and they are moving at roughly the speed our fingernails grow.
The Hawaiian Islands formed because there is a “hot spot” in the mantle that is continuously erupting, and the crust is moving over that spot, so a volcanic island forms, then as the crust carries it away it stops growing and starts eroding away. A new island starts to form at a new spot over the volcano and eventually it moves on and another Island begins to form. If you look at a map of the Islands you can see the Island get smaller towards the NorthWest, and beyond them there are undersea mounts that used to be Islands but are eroded below sea level.
Cool stuff!

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I know! When my middle schooler was learning earth science I spent a whole Saturday reading about plate tectonics because I did not know much about it. It is such an amazing model.

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Geology and other patterns we see in studying nature make us all geek out…and the cool thing is that not only geology, but astronomy, genetics, paleontology…they all jive together tremendously well in describing this ancient and marvelous universe we are just getting to know.

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Explained by how. But what the person says it was? The explanation could also be that those who wrote of the great flood, were all ancestors of the family members who passed down the historical fact of that great flood. And even though not all of the facts are exact as what the Bible mentions, the fact that the flood is mentioned from around the world, does leave open that the Bible was correct. Just as it has been for all of the other doubted historical events which have been proven true.

You can believe that someone made such a dam way back then that would have held so much water. This would have been a very monumental challenge for us in our age. And an impossible for one for anyone at that time. .

And please remember that those who are interpreting the evidence that you are accepting. Are those who are denying the Bible’s authority. They interpret what they are seeing, or making up what they are seeing according to their billions of years theory. Where everything is looked at through the “there is no God” lenses, and so of course what is found or what is read, had nothing to do with God.

So now, you have every scientist who claims that there were momentous floods all over the world but that they were all at different times. But these could not have been just one flood?
Why not? Who is to say there wasn’t? Those who refuse to believe what God told us in His Word!!!

And river water does not contain millions of sea life that would be laid onto all of the mountain ranges.
You are not thinking logically. First of all you are not willing to accept that God is real. You would rather believe what man has devised and not what God has given. Even though the evidence points to what He has said.
Even though there are plenty of other scientists who say that their fellow scientists are all wrong about the evidence.

The marine life predicted and well explained? By whom once again. When? After the fact.
And you fail to see the mentioning of the fact that the higher mountains of today, were the then lower mountains of the past. Which would have been covered by the flood, ans which would have been pushed up because of your “admitted, tectonic shifting” making them higher mountains.

In other words, they still would have had to have been under water. And if we take into consideration that these marine fossils are on every mountain range, then either water covered them at one time, and then pushed up. Or they were all covered at different times, and then pushed up. But no one has ever said that there were dispersed floods, all over the earth where sea water flowed and then those specific mountains were formed.

And yes I can presume what you say I can not. For one, it is historical evidence that goes to suggest that it happened, (although the exact nature is in question). And for another there are scientists who claim that it did happen. And they have been awarded their diplomas from the same schools as those who you choose to believe over them.

But the scientists who recognize the flood, are backed by the historical records of may of the civilizations, and by historical recordings of a proven trustworthy document, the Bible.

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It wasn’t created by an “anyone” it was created by nature.

No it interpreted by people who don’t have the same interpretation of the Bible that you do.

Again, there are many Christian geologists so please don’t slander your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ like this. Do you have the same issue with meteorologists that don’t mention God in their weather forecasts?

The evidence left by these floods also includes evidence for when they happened. They didn’t all happen at the same time. If you accept the fact they happened you have to also accept the fact of when they happened.

No one has ever said river water deposited marine life.

Yes God is real. He is very real. He created the earth 4 billion years ago. We see the wonders of His creation when we study the Earth.

Civilizations that are older than the Bible says they should be.

When it comes to redemption history the Bible is a trustworthy document. The Bible does not try to tell us natural history.

Even all of the YEC can’t agree on what happened. For example, some support plate tectonics others don’t. There is no single YEC theory on the global flood. The theory changes based on which parts of the evidence they are trying to fit in. There is only one theory where all the parts fit together.

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It was a natural dam, that is, one built by nature not humans. Caused by an earthquake which triggered a landslide. No technology was required. All these events left predictable evidence in the rocks that could be verified by geologists.

You know what would have really been a monumental challenge? Building a seaworthy ship with hand tools that could withstand the cataclysmic events flood geologists say happened during a worldwide flood and fitting the representatives of the entire world’s biodiversity inside, not to mention keeping them all alive for a year. Actually it would have been beyond challenging, it would have been impossible, even with modern technology.

They are scientists. They know far more about geology and archaeology than you or I. I bet they are not thinking about the Bible or God at all. The fact that the earth is billions or years old is a measurement, not a theory.

No. Because the physical evidence says otherwise. All over the world.

Not at all a problem if you concede the mountains and the fossils in them existed long before the Yellow River flooded locally a few thousand years ago. The evidence doesn’t fit your theory, it works perfectly well with mine.

I would rather believe what is true. So if what someone says is God’s word turns out to be wrong, than obviously that wasn’t truth given by God. It was a person being wrong about the Bible.

Name one who came to the conclusion that the world was destroyed by a flood based solely on evidence in nature and not based on a prior commitment to a Bible interpretation.

By plate tectonic theory and standard geologic ages as affirmed by virtually all geologists.

The mountains of today were approximately the same height as they are now four thousand years ago. Tectonic plates do not shift rapidly. If they did shift as rapidly as some flood models claim, they would release so much energy, it would vaporize the oceans. Tectonic plate theory can’t be co-opted by flood geology. It requires billions of years and obedience to established laws of physics.

There are scientists with diplomas who claim aliens are controlling our minds. Finding a scientist who says something is not how scientific consensus works. There is absolutely no meaningful consensus about the things you are claiming.

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The Hawaii thing is amazing, and you can see in erosion patterns and dormancy of volcanoes how the islands are different ages.
Even more dramatic to me is the rift valley containing the Sea of Galilee and the Dead Sea. We just got back from the area, and it is impressive to see that deep depression and contemplate how it was formed and how it continues to open up. Joel Duff has an informative series of blogs over at the Natural Historian regarding it.

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Why is it so hard to accept the “global flood” at the end of the ice age? This is when every coastal region in the world flooded as the ocean rose. Yes it was a slow rise, but it caused many dramatic localized events as new waterways formed. Is it because it would mean dating Noah to the 9th century BCE? But way is that a problem?

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Mr Murphy, typically YEC mean a flood in which all land of the entire globe was submerged; I don’t think that is what you’re referring to? Thanks.

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Sorry, I did not know that BioLogos was propagating YEC. I will refrain from commenting further.
Best Wishes, Shawn

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You’re continuing to misunderstand. Biologos is answering YEC, not propagating it. Any non-global flood does not satisfy flood-geology, and that is what Gerald here is pushing. Your scenario does nothing to answer him any more than many other variously cataclysmic (but local) floods that everybody already accepts would have been scattered all through history.

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Well of course there would, because all those civilizations would have descended from Noah’s family. There’s little to no record of civilization prior to the Flood.

(I’m not arguing here for a worldwide Flood, just that this particular point doesn’t…

…hold water. Ba-dum swish!).

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Is that true? How do you know this?

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Not only is this a logical non sequitur, but there is no evidence to support the claim. Actually, on the contrary there is all kinds of evidence that Christy believes that God is real.

I don’t mean that simply.

“What you believe” is less manifested by what you say. Technically, that is “what you say you believe.” What you truly believe is manifested by what you do (and might even be in contrast to what you say you believe). There’s one thing about Christy–she has, in her actions, manifested belief in God.

So from my view, to make such an obviously false statement, it kind of casts into doubt a lot of the rest of what you’re saying, since it reveals something of a predilection to abandon logic and evidence for the sake of spurious accusation.

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I’m sorry I miscommunicated. I meant to say, as @Mervin_Bitikofer said, that YEC would not agree to the story of a world wide partial flood. Scientifically, there was evidence for higher sea levels–just not for worldwide covering. Am I less confused sounding? let me know; thanks.

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I think it’s great that you are trying to find reasons to follow God; we differ in what our interpretation is, but I certainly do believe in and follow God, too.

I’m concerned, though, that we as evangelicals who believe “because the Bible says so,” and then because we want to, cast stones in glass houses–how can we throw accusations to scientists as being biased, when we are the worst? Rather, we should examine our own biases! Thanks.