Paul refers to the story as it was understood. Just like a parable of Jesus. Using it does not necessarily confirm the reality of it.
Apologies if I answered the wrong question. Those passages are like a red rag to a bull for me.
Richard
Sorry. I am working on removing my last statement. I was thinking of 4 for some reason.
I still believe though that chapter 3 is a ahistorical story. I believe that Adam and Eve were selected as a couple to be gods people. I don’t think she came from a rib but could have. I do believe chapter 4 shows that Cain was afraid of other people who were further away from his community and that Eves next kid was Seth. So it was not brothers and sisters he was afraid of but others humans that were never invited into the garden.
Anyways I believe that Adam and Eve were chosen to be invited into gods place where heaven and earth overlapped and that the devil did deceive them into following their flesh and eating from a tree. I think it was a literal tree and that the tree itself was not evil, or had special powers, but that by eating from it you went against Gods commands and decided you knew good from evil regardless of what God said.
Strikes me you are trying to get the best of both worlds.
I really cannot see how you justify this version. Either you take what is written as real or you take it as allegorical / folk tale. There are certain indicators that the story is not based on reality, not the least being the positioning cannot be rectified with the known geography. The river Pishon has defied identity. Add to that some of the other details, including God wandering around in some sort of Human form and you get a story that had passed down by word of mouth. A traditional story with folk meaning about ancestry and complaining about the fact that we appear to have been shut out of Paradise. Of course if Paradise involves innocence then it is lost for ever flaming sword or no.
For me the clincher is that God would create man in such innocence? Or that He would allow us to “steal” sentience. However you look at it God does not come out very well.
Richard
I’m not trying to get the best out of anything. I look at what science shows, and what scripture says, and find what can fit.
Scripture shows this.
It’s clear that there were other humans there that was not Adam and Eve or their kids . That God creates humans and angels are co-rulers ofer earth and the heavens. Scripture shows that the ancient Jews, early Christians, Jesus, and the apostles all believed in Adam and Eve as real people. It’s clear that God created something that he believes in good and made a special place on earth for Adam and Eve. Scripture shows god selecting a remnant of people to make covenants with them. It’s clear that God can manifest himself in many ways from pillars of fire , to some sort of light , to a burning bush, and to making the word become flesh.
Science shows us that the earth is billions of years old. Science shows us that there has been several species in the Homo genus and that human ancestry is more diverse than just a few people.
Scripture and science are both full of holes and leaves questions with no answers.
It’s also a very common practice for people to produce works that combine real people and real events with fictional people and fictional events or just simply being hyperbolic with real people and events. Historical fiction does not mean 100% fiction or 100% nonfiction.
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I believe very strongly in scripture showing us that God has revealed his truth to us in two ways.
- His word and science.
The word.
2 Timothy 3:16-17 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
John 1:14 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
The Word Made Flesh
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Science.
Colossians 1:16 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Hebrews 11:3 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.
We also can see glimpses of it in Gods responses to Job.
So we can look to science and scripture to find the most accurate picture.
Such as the event in Joshua 10.
We can see the scripture is trying to point out a few things. A war happened. The Israelites won through a microwave by God and by fighting. As stated earlier miracles are breaks in reality. They are outliers, not the normal.
We also know that science shows us that the sun never moves. Those verses imply it does. So maybe the earth stood still, maybe the earth titled or maybe he produced a secondary light. We don’t know. But we do know that scripture is clear a war was won and a miracle took place ( scripture) but that’s the sun did not freeze implying it moved because it’s always still.
So we see real historical events and fiction combined to create a story that ancient Jewish people could understand.
I have no real problem with Joshua’s long day. My conjecture is that it was, in God’s providence, a massive temperature inversion causing a large and long lasting superior mirage. (Though that’s a technical term, it was especially ‘superior’ since it was very notably God’s hand. 
) It was massive in that the temperature inversion extended well beyond the horizon and lasted for an exceptional length of time and caused the sun to stand still in the sky, and the earth, for all intents and purposes, to stand still as well. Scripture only really necessitates that the sun and moon stood still – in the sky.
I don’t have a issue either with it. However, ancient Jewish people believed that the earth was the center of the universe and that the sun moved around earth. So they thought the sun that typically moves suddenly stopped moving. So it was the perfect example to back up my interpretation that something can be a combination of real people and events with fiction tossed in, even if that fiction was a misunderstanding on their part.
I prefer John Walton’s explanation as it removes all conflict with science.
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The sun really does stop in the sky and even goes backward. This is a scientific fact which I bet you didn’t know about.
…
…
…
on the planet Mercury.
It is, however, very doubtful that anything similar could happen on the Earth. It is far more likely just an account of the subjective experience of time. And no… it is not enough that this was written in the Bible, so therefore it must have happened exactly that way.
Mel Gibson’s movie, The Patriot, is another example of fiction and fact.
American Revolution? = Fact
Final Battle of Movie? = Based on Fact
Which Historical Battle? = two separate ones smushed together!
(Cowpens, Guilford Courthouse).
Did the Patriots win both battles? = Nope! Cowpens was a victory but in the latter, the Patriots were driven from the field!
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I have been taking the time to think things over once again.
I can define 3 versions of the (Gen 1-3) creation story.
1a. A&E are real historical people.
• Gen 3:20 - The man called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all living.
• Gen 5 - Adam’s descendants to Noah
and…
1b. The fall is a real historical event.
• Rom 5:12 - Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned.
• 1 Cor 15:21-22 - For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
• 2 Cor 11:3 - But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning
• 1 Tim 2:3-4 - For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
Seems to me Paul considered the story in Paradise as a real event.
[2] The creation story and fall in a symbolic way explains a) that living in a polytheistic world with hundreds of gods there is only one true God that created all and b) Gen-3 explains why there is suffering and ultimately is death. No further theology. As such 2b reads at first glance and was told in my youth. I reject it because of the Bible passages as listed in 1b.
[3] It’s clear (at least to me) Genesis 1 is written in a Jewish framework, God working 6 days, then resting on the 7th day, more symbolism I guess, John 5:16-17 comes to mind, God working on the Sabbath. A theory would be that A&E were chosen by God as the first 2 Jewish people from which the nation of Israel would arise as God’s chosen people and A&E were the only 2 people who were tempted. Gen 6 and Isa 53 could be seen as evidence for the theory;
• Gen 6 - The sons of God (offspring of A&E) start to mix with the daughters of man (those who Cain feared)
• Isa 53 - Contrary to Christianity Isa 53 is interpreted by Jews as the nation of Israel. In context (and from their point of view) it is defendable, they suffer for their sins (and some say even for the sins of the whole world) upon this day, anti-semitism after AD 70 is rampant and well documented and was peaking during the Holocaust. The Jews are the most persecuted people throughout history.
Objections:
• In the OT sons of God are creatures created by God, not by mankind.
• Gen 3:20 - The man called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all living.
Nevertheless looking at Gen 1-3 from a 100% Jewish perspective can’t hurt.
====
And there is another point why I only will accept evolution when it is proven in a lab. I have a hard time accepting something as a (scientific) fact that I don’t (fully) understand, not my cup of tea, your mileage may vary. Belief =/= fact.
And so I stick to option 1.
Adam’s “gift” ?
Adam was punished and the Earth was cursed.
Not exactly a blessing.
Do you accept weather forecasts? The weather models have never been proven in a lab.
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Good points.
I wonder if you would consider Enns’ take in “Evolution of Adam.” He takes your questions and goes deeper with his Harvard studies from his Jewish and other profs.
I wonder about the evolution and a lab issue though. We can’t recreate Rome in a lab; but there’s tons of evidence. Would you enjoy taking an evolution course? Genetics in particular is one of the strongest evidences, and was part of what convinced me in 1995 in college. However, just the fact that so many different branches jive together (paleontology, geology, astrophysics, etc) is overwhelming to me.
Good discourse. Thanks.
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Prove evolution in a LAB?
Which part of evolution? The part that takes millions of years?
Or do you need proof that DNA mutations occur?
Or that negative mutations cause a drop in reproductive success?
Or that positive mutations cause an increase in reproductive success?
Prof. Behe ALREADY accepts Common Descent … so which part do you reject?
Absolute cobblers. What sort of God are you worshipping?
Genesis claims that Adam “stole” sentience. (took it without permission). You really think that God did not give His prize creation sentience?
Give it a rest.
Richard
When looking at it for me, as ahistorical event, meaning that it’s a combination of fiction and reality with the goal to explain a truth to primitive people I don’t see the tree of knowledge or good and evil being an actual issue scientifically or scripturally.
I am not sure if it was this thread, but I see the tree as the law. The law explains good and evil. Without the law, those same things existed but were not categorized as sin. Such as sowing two types of seed sin a field. Nothing is evil about it, except God said don’t under that covenant.
The tree was placed in the center of the garden. That means you would have to walk through a forest of perfectly fine and edible food to consume before getting there. Adam already has the ability to choose sin before sin entered the world because he was already able to make a choice.
The law was don’t eat from that tree. They disobeyed and by disobeying they made themself like god, and able to choose what is and is not evil in their own eyes.
It’s not about genetic corruption or adding something new to the world beyond being banished and a harsher environment where it’s easier to choose sin. A person with everything they want and need is less likely to do something bad than someone who wants and needs more.
They ate from a tree, could have been any tree native to that region and time, maybe even one extinct, and to me that’s the totality of it.
Does not contradict faith or science and I feel id able to be harmonized. I feel many have a all or nothing mentality on either it’s all real or all fake but still truth.
It never rained jelly beans from the sky, only water. Oh wait, there once came manna from the sky for 40 years in a particular desert on the planet 
Speaking about the weather, there is no one now living on the planet who with 100% certainty can claim that climate change is caused by human behavior or by natural cause. None. It’s up to us layman which expert to believe. Belief =/= fact.
You haven’t been keeping up with the science.
For the last 800,000 years, there have been glacial periods every 100,000 years… regular as a clock.
The regularity comes from the Milankovitch Cycles
The net effect of the 3 different cycles is a regular cooling and heating of the earth that (paradoxically) drives the CO2 cycle from a low of 180 ppm to a high of 280 ppm.
This cycle didn’t kick in until the Earth’s atmospheric CO2 levels reach down to 180 ppm; many geologists think the collision of India with Asia, which created a massive upwelling of millions of acres of soil, was the final factor in driving CO2 levels so low.
Interestingly, once CO2 gets as low as 280 ppm, it is low enough to melt all the glaciers on 6 of the 7 continents on Earth. First, however, we needed the CO2 level to drop to 180 ppm for glaciers to start appearing! During these CO2 lows, glaciers on Manhattan could become 1 mile deep. But still disappear 50,000 later when CO2 went back up to 280 ppm.
Now that we have CO2 up to more than 400 ppm, the Melankovitch Cycle has been swamped out. The glaciers north of Antarctica will completely disappear… and probably the ones on Antarctica as well. In fact, even if we didn’t burn a single additional pound of carbon, the Earth’s temperature is now set to “SIMMER”. The glaciers are doomed.
We have burned millions of years of fixed carbon in just 100 years of human industrialization. So it is going to take some major breakthrough to figure out how to re-fix the carbon into solid, archival form!
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Scripture:
16 To the woman he said, “I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”
17 And to Adam he said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, ‘You shall not eat of it,’ cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
18 thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.
I think A&E cried a million of tears.