Four Views on the Historical Adam (Rauser Review)


(Randy) #1

In keeping with recent discussions of how a historical Adam could exist as well as Lamoureux’ books, this 2013 Counterpoints issue describes how 1) Young Earth (Barrick), 2) Old Earth (Collins), 3) Archetypal (Walton), and 4) Evolutionary Creation have imagined Adam to exist (or not). The closest they come to Genealogical Adam is a discussion about how sin could diffuse through parallel inhabitants from the first couple. I appreciate Randal Rauser’s generally clear, kind and reverent reviews. This is no exception.

I’d be interested in your thoughts.

https://randalrauser.com/2014/05/an-evolving-evangelical-debate-a-review-of-four-views-on-the-historical-adam/

@jlock has already reviewed this in 2015, and may want to step in again.


(Mitchell W McKain) #2

First of all, this list is composed to favor the old earth view so I think the list needs to be revised. But let’s begin by stating my problems with this list.
First problem: The distinction between young earth and old earth is not about Adam.
Second problem: Clearly the evolutionary crowd has a number of different views on Adam which are ignored.

So new list:

  1. Adam is a golem of dust animated with magic by an ancient necromancer some call God.
  2. Adam was not created by magic but was created without any parents.
  3. Adam was a homo sapiens who was made human in some way such as being taught important ideas like love and personhood by a God who spoke to him.
  4. Adam was a homo sapiens who, by himself, came up with some important idea such as God.
  5. There was no such person as Adam, for this is just a device in a teaching homily invented by the human writer of the original story.

Now we can examine the compatibilites with the views YEC, Old Earth Creationism (including gap and progressive), limited evolution (excluding man), Evolution (including man).
YEC: 1 or 2
OEC: 1, 2, or 3. possible but not likely to credit explanations 4 or 5.
Limited evolution: 1, 2, 3. possible but not likely to credit explanation 4.
Evolution: 3, 4, or 5

My position in this spectrum is Evolution and the 3rd explanation of Adam. I believe this choice gives full support for both the findings of science and an historical understanding of Genesis. And my guess as to when this Adam lived is 10,000 years ago +/- 4000 years.

The idea of a genealogical Adam only goes with 1 and 2. And there is no support for this in science. There is nothing, for example, in the ideas of mitochondrial Eve or Y-chromosomal Adam which support this idea. These do point to an ice-age period when the human species was probably reduced to a small remnant surviving on the southern coast of Africa between 100,000 and 200,000 years ago. But neither of these mean that we are descended from a single woman or from a single man.


(George Brooks) #3

@mitchellmckain

Which part of Genealogical Adam needs more scientific support?


(Mitchell W McKain) #4

There is no scientific support. But the real questions, I suppose, are:

  1. whether the evidence we have is consitent with a geneological Adam?
  2. whether there is a reasonable expectation that objective evidence for a geneological Adam would exist?

Like when dealing with the questions of God, fairies and Santa Claus, mostly the evidence limits what sort of these things would be consistent with the evidence. Well… neither 1 nor 2 are consistent with evidence. For in neither of these cases would you expect the genes for things in other animals, such as the genes for tails, to be present in human beings. But this doesn’t directly contradict the genealogical Adam which points to a flaw in my claim that a genealogical Adam only goes with 1 and 2, even though 3, 4, 5 don’t work as I have stated them, which means my list needs to be expanded to include a 3b, and 4b, adding the following: “And all of present human beings are descended from this Adam, while all the other homo sapiens died out.” It is an extraneous addition, since 3 and 4 removes any need for a genealogical descent. But these are alternatives that someone might believe in.

So how about an expectation of positive evidence? I think there is. You would expect genealogical studies to show a convergence to a singular genome. This is shown for other genealogical bottlenecks like the following (from Wikipedia on population bottleneck)

A 2005 study from Rutgers University theorized that the pre-1492 native populations of the Americas are the descendants of only 70 individuals who crossed the land bridge between Asia and North America.

The numbers calculated for the ice age remnant of homo sapiens in southern Africa are around 2000 for possibly as long as 100,000 years.

But what is the minimum possible. Well I think that bottleneck 100,000 years ago makes it difficult to limit how small the population could have been at a time significantly before that. So I think what the genealogical studies can rule out is the possibility that we are all descended from a single man and woman which lived at any time in the last 200,000 years.

But before you get all excited the other problem of there being genes for other animals in our DNA remains inconsistent with the human species beginning with a special creation of an Adam with no parents as in 1 and 2. But 3b and 4b (3 and 4 with a genealogical Adam more than 200,000 years ago) remain odd possibilities I suppose.


(George Brooks) #5

@mitchellmckain

I dont think you understand G.A. very well.

  1. The evolutionary scenario for the pre-adamites is WHATEVER the current view is for the evolution of Sapiens. Period.

  2. Added to it is Special Creation of just one couple… with the same general genome ss the pre-Adamites.

  3. Anything different would be weeded out by God ling before the birth of Jesus.


(George Brooks) #6
  1. As for the timing of the de novo couple… generally anywhere between 6000 years ago and 100,000 years ago should embrace the most likely proposals.

  2. As for the size of the population… anywhere from 5000 to 500,000 should embrace the most likely proposals.


(Mitchell W McKain) #7

As referring to some complicated theory concocted by someone then no. I was taking at the face value meaning of the words, namely that Adam (and Eve) are the sole source of the the genetic inheritance of human kind, and that is how you should read my comments above. Thus it would have nothing to do with the evolution of homo sapiens, special creation, population, or Jesus. And it is the genetic evidence which tells us such a couple would be 200,000 or more years ago.

Apparently your usage is something much stranger for I cannot even imagine why the genealogical heritage of Jesus would have any importance whatsoever except in a theological rational which I would oppose as disgusting. If it is referring to a couple which is not the sole source of human genetics then the genetic evidence becomes irrelevant. The population of 2000 is the calculated minimum population for the genetic bottleneck of the ice age remnant of the species surviving 100,000 years ago, and is a scientific issue having nothing to do with theology.


(George Brooks) #8

@mitchellmckain

Yet your description is now perfect except your understanding for the value of the scenario.

Note: while the usual role for Adam is to be half of the SOLE ancestral pair… there are more than one universal ancestral pairs.

And the reason Adam and Eve are special is because Paul says they are.


(Phil) #9

Excellent review of the book. It has been a while since I read it, but would agree with Rauser regarding the book. I think that if anyone in wondering about the different positions, books like this offer a great way to compare and contrast using the advocates of those positions own words, thus making bias less likely, and being fair to all. I also enjoyed the book Five Views on Biblical Inerrancy for the same reason.


(Randy) #10

@jpm, yes, that’s a great one; I was planning on posting a review on that one, too. That’s the first place I’d ever read Michael Bird and his sense of humor. Enns, Vanhoozer, and the others were also great.


(Theophilus Book) #11

Genesis 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; 2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

And called THEIR NAME Adam. “Their name” = both words are plural in the Greek version of the telling.

Adam AND Eve are one completed MAN. NO Man is complete without a Mate designed by God Himself. There is no other creature on Earth that is suited to the needs of Man.

Consider, when Eve was deceived by the serpent, and ate of forbidden fruit, I do not believe she shrugged it off. I think she tested Adam’s love when she brought the fruit to him and HE ATE THEREOF, thus joining her in her sin.

I believe it is the strongest and truest love story second only to Christ’s love for Humanity.

For Adam had already experienced a life of being the only representative of his specie, and I believe he was truly and fully in love with the Mate God prepared and brought to him.

And I believe Adam weighed his concept of consequences against his experience which to date had never known consequences that were bad, therefore, having no first-hand experience, took a chance on a merciful God, having been convinced of the goodness of God.

Many theologians ignore this aspect of Adam’s lack of experience, which is the basis and foundation of our own decision making process. Adam had no such history of mistakes and errors.

I have NEVER cursed Adam, nor Eve, for their lack of sense by their sin in the garden, but rather sympathize with their passage into jeopardy with no notebook filled with warnings from an earlier generation.

I think that is probably why Jesus is designated the “2nd Adam.” NO ONE had ever experienced what Jesus was to suffer either. There was no reference material covering the EXPERIENCE of sacrifice of a perfect man, for the sins of the guilty all around him. It was to be a firstfruit of a new Historical consideration.

And all those Theologians who believe in the doctrine of “Original sin” whereby all men are considered lost and unable to do anything to help their own salvation, need to read the scriptures instead of pursuing doctrines and creeds which limit their own ability to judge righteously.

They cannot even speak of Noah, and Daniel, and Job, who, by their own righteousness, will save only their selves. The reference is as plain as the reference to Adam’s sin. “The word of the LORD came again to me, saying, 13 Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it: 14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD. 15 If I cause noisome beasts to pass through the land, and they spoil it, so that it be desolate, that no man may pass through because of the beasts: 16 Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters; they only shall be delivered, but the land shall be desolate. 17 Or if I bring a sword upon that land, and say, Sword, go through the land; so that I cut off man and beast from it: 18 Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters, but they only shall be delivered themselves. 19 Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my fury upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast: 20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.”(Ezekiel 14:12-20)

The doctrine which explains how they were not imputed sin, is for another thread.

But they were not the only ones so blessed - (Rom 4:8) “Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.”

Enoch was another who God "translated, because he had this testimony, “He pleased God.” So Enoch did not suffer death, but was translated.

Then there is the testimony of Paul who introduces the true NATURE of Men -
(Rom 2:14) For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, [color=crimson]do by nature[/color] the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

So now we have the Historical truth of Adam and “Original sin,” It was EVE who committed it, not Adam. The reason for promoting the concept was to invent a doctrine of “The immaculate conception” wherein Mary, being a woman like Eve, would be free from the taint of original sin, due to the assignment being placed on Adam, in doctrine and creed; and who can question doctrines and creeds?

ANY reasonable Man or Woman - THAT’S WHO.


(George Brooks) #12

@Theo_Book

Huh?

I think thats a stretch. How about the more simple:

“And called them Humans…”

This is how Genesis 1:27 reads as well.

As to Original Sin… i am on record as not being a fan.

But i dont see how anyone can seriously expect Creationists to make progress without one of two possible options:

1] either convince them Original Sin is bogus, or

2] give them space for Original Sin in exchange for accepting Evolutionary evidence for the rest of creation.


(Theophilus Book) #13

[quote=“gbrooks9, post:12, topic:39399, full:true”]

@Theo_Book

Huh?

I think thats a stretch. How about the more simple:
“And called them Humans…”
This is how Genesis 1:27 reads as well.

As to Original Sin… i am on record as not being a fan.
But i dont see how anyone can seriously expect Creationists to make progress without one of two possible options:

1] either convince them Original Sin is bogus, or

2] give them space for Original Sin in exchange for accepting Evolutionary evidence for the rest of creation.[/quote]

In the GREEK of scripture -
MAN is Anthrwpos
MANKIND; HUMAN; is Anthrwpinos

Daniel 7:4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle’s wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a (anthrwpinee)man’s heart was given to it.
anthrwpinee = adjective normal nominative feminine singular form of [UBS] = anthrwpinos = [UBS] human; characteristic of mankind; ]

Job 10:5 Are thy days as the days of (anthrwpinos) man? are thy years as man’s days,[anthrwpinos = adjective normal nominative masculine singular form of [UBS] = anthrwpinos = human; characteristic of mankind;]

Numbers 5:6 Speak unto the children of Israel, When a (aneer)man) or (gunee)woman) shall commit any sin that (anthrwpinwn)men) commit, to do a trespass against the LORD, and that person be guilty;
[anthrwpinwn = adjective normal genitive neuter plural form of [UBS] anthrwpinos = human; characteristic of mankind;]

Ezekiel 37:1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of
(anthrwpinwn) (men’s) bones,
[anthrwpinwn = adjective genitive neuter plural form of [UBS]anthrwpinos = human; characteristic of mankind;]

LXE Daniel 7:4 The first was as a lioness, and her wings as an eagle’s; I beheld until her wings were plucked, ands she was lifted off from the earth, and she stood on (anthrwpinwn) human) feet, and a man’s heart was given to her.
[anthrwpinwn = adjective normal genitive masculine plural = [UBS]anthrwpinos =
human; characteristic of mankind;

James 3:7 For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of (anthrwpinee) mankind:
[anthrwpinee = adj dat fem sing form of [UBS]anthrwpinos = human; characteristic of mankind;

1 Peter 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of (anthrwpinee) man for the Lord’s sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
[anthrwpinee = adj dat fem sing form of [UBS]anthrwpinos = human; characteristic of mankind;

1 Cor 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which (anthrwpinees) man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
[anthrwpinees = adj gen fem sing form of [UBS]anthrwpinos = human; characteristic of mankind;]

1 Cor 4:3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of () (anthrwpinees) man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
[anthrwpinees = adj gen fem sing form of [UBS]anthrwpinos = human; characteristic of mankind;]

Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of (anthrwpinon) men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
[anthrwpinon = adj adverb form of [UBS]anthrwpinos = human; characteristic of mankind;]

1 Cor 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to (anthrwpinos) man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
[anthrwpinos = adj nom masc sing form of [UBS]anthrwpinos = human; characteristic of mankind;]

Acts 17:25 Neither is worshipped with (anthrwpinwn) men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
[anthrwpinwn = adj gen fem pl form of anthrwpinos = human; characteristic of mankind;]

As for the totally stupid doctrine of Ori9ginal Sin: -
It was invented by MEN to enslave the souls of other Men And it worked for centuries; Centuries of ignorance in which laity believed clergy.

The problem was dependant upon clergy being as ignorant as the laity, and being trained by clergy of higher rank doeing the teaching.

Even in today’s society, when I disagreed with my bible instructor in college over the purpose of the book of Job, I was told to write it like I was taught in his class if I expected to get a degree. THAT is how error trickles down from generation to generation.

Look at the scriptures and tell me how “Original sin” doctrine can possibly be correct.

Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Deut 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

2 Kings 14:6 But the children of the murderers he slew not: according unto that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, wherein the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

2 Chron 25:1 Amaziah was twenty and five years old when he began to reign, and he reigned twenty and nine years in Jerusalem. And his mother’s name was Jehoaddan of Jerusalem.
2 And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, but not with a perfect heart.
3 Now it came to pass, when the kingdom was established to him, that he slew his servants that had killed the king his father.
4 But he slew not their children, but did as it is written in the law in the book of Moses, where the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not die for the children, neither shall the children die for the fathers, but every man shall die for his own sin.

Jer 31:30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.

Ezek 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,
6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour’s wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,
7 And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment;
8 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,
9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.
10 If he beget a son that is a robber, a shedder of blood, and that doeth the like to any one of these things,
11 And that doeth not any of those duties, but even hath eaten upon the mountains, and defiled his neighbour’s wife,
12 Hath oppressed the poor and needy, hath spoiled by violence, hath not restored the pledge, and hath lifted up his eyes to the idols, hath committed abomination,
13 Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him.

14 Now, lo, if he beget a son, that seeth all his father’s sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like,
15 That hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbour’s wife,
16 Neither hath oppressed any, hath not withholden the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence, but hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment,
17 That hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live.
18 As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.

19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Ezek 20:1 And it came to pass in the seventh year, in the fifth month, the tenth day of the month, that certain of the elders of Israel came to enquire of the LORD, and sat before me.
2 Then came the word of the LORD unto me, saying,
3 Son of man, speak unto the elders of Israel, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Are ye come to enquire of me? As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I will not be enquired of by you.
4 Wilt thou judge them, son of man, wilt thou judge them? cause them to know the abominations of their fathers:
5 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day when I chose Israel, and lifted up mine hand unto the seed of the house of Jacob, and made myself known unto them in the land of Egypt, when I lifted up mine hand unto them, saying, I am the LORD your God;
6 In the day that I lifted up mine hand unto them, to bring them forth of the land of Egypt into a land that I had espied for them, flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands:
7 Then said I unto them, Cast ye away every man the abominations of his eyes, and defile not yourselves with the idols of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
8 But they rebelled against me, and would not hearken unto me: they did not every man cast away the abominations of their eyes, neither did they forsake the idols of Egypt: then I said, I will pour out my fury upon them, to accomplish my anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt.
9 But I wrought for my name’s sake, that it should not be polluted before the heathen, among whom they were, in whose sight I made myself known unto them, in bringing them forth out of the land of Egypt.
10 Wherefore I caused them to go forth out of the land of Egypt, and brought them into the wilderness.
11 And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them.
12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.
13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them.
14 But I wrought for my name’s sake, that it should not be polluted before the heathen, in whose sight I brought them out.
15 Yet also I lifted up my hand unto them in the wilderness, that I would not bring them into the land which I had given them, flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands;
16 Because they despised my judgments, and walked not in my statutes, but polluted my sabbaths: for their heart went after their idols.
17 Nevertheless mine eye spared them from destroying them, neither did I make an end of them in the wilderness.
18 But I said unto their children in the wilderness, Walk ye not in the statutes of your fathers, neither observe their judgments, nor defile yourselves with their idols:
19 I am the LORD your God; walk in my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them;
20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God.
21 Notwithstanding the children rebelled against me: they walked not in my statutes, neither kept my judgments to do them, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; they polluted my sabbaths: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them, to accomplish my anger against them in the wilderness.
22 Nevertheless I withdrew mine hand, and wrought for my name’s sake, that it should not be polluted in the sight of the heathen, in whose sight I brought them forth.
23 I lifted up mine hand unto them also in the wilderness, that I would scatter them among the heathen, and disperse them through the countries;
24 Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers’ idols.
25 Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;
26 And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the LORD.
27 Therefore, son of man, speak unto the house of Israel, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Yet in this your fathers have blasphemed me, in that they have committed a trespass against me.
28 For when I had brought them into the land, for the which I lifted up mine hand to give it to them, then they saw every high hill, and all the thick trees, and they offered there their sacrifices, and there they presented the provocation of their offering: there also they made their sweet savour, and poured out there their drink offerings.
29 Then I said unto them, What is the high place whereunto ye go? And the name thereof is called Bamah unto this day.
30 Wherefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Are ye polluted after the manner of your fathers? and commit ye whoredom after their abominations?
31 For when ye offer your gifts, when ye make your sons to pass through the fire, ye pollute yourselves with all your idols, even unto this day: and shall I be enquired of by you, O house of Israel? As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I will not be enquired of by you.
32 And that which cometh into your mind shall not be at all, that ye say, We will be as the heathen, as the families of the countries, to serve wood and stone.
33 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:
34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.
35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.
36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD.
37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:
38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
39 As for you, O house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; Go ye, serve ye every one his idols, and hereafter also, if ye will not hearken unto me: but pollute ye my holy name no more with your gifts, and with your idols.
40 For in mine holy mountain, in the mountain of the height of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, there shall all the house of Israel, all of them in the land, serve me: there will I accept them, and there will I require your offerings, and the firstfruits of your oblations, with all your holy things.
41 I will accept you with your sweet savour, when I bring you out from the people, and gather you out of the countries wherein ye have been scattered; and I will be sanctified in you before the heathen.
42 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall bring you into the land of Israel, into the country for the which I lifted up mine hand to give it to your fathers.
43 And there shall ye remember your ways, and all your doings, wherein ye have been defiled; and ye shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for all your evils that ye have committed.
44 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have wrought with you for my name’s sake, not according to your wicked ways, nor according to your corrupt doings, O ye house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.
45 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
46 Son of man, set thy face toward the south, and drop thy word toward the south, and prophesy against the forest of the south field;
47 And say to the forest of the south, Hear the word of the LORD; Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will kindle a fire in thee, and it shall devour every green tree in thee, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burned therein.
48 And all flesh shall see that I the LORD have kindled it: it shall not be quenched.
49 Then said I, Ah Lord GOD! they say of me, Doth he not speak parables?

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


(George Brooks) #14

@Theo_Book

This is all very nice … but it has no bearing on how the word “adam” is used in Genesis 1.

Young’s Bible is the only one that interprets the Hebrew as “the Man”. All the other translations use terms like
“Mankind” or “Humanity” or “Humans”.


(Tom Larkin) #15

If Adam is representative story of man and there was no original sin, then why did Jesus have to die on the cross? Why couldn’t God have provided a “representative” sacrifice and Jesus would have not had to go through that suffering?

I believe Romand and Corinthians makes it clear that Jesus is the antithesis of Adam, as through one man all have sinned, through one man all are saved.

As I have stated before, if Genesis 1 and 2 are read as sequential events, many contradictions in the Bible are eliminated and the conflict with evolution is removed.


(George Brooks) #16

@TGLarkin

Well, then … this works quite well for Genealogical Adam scenarios.

The preferred reading of Genesis 1 and 2 is that the two chapters discuss two separate sets of events. And the conflict with evolution can be removed by allowing for Genesis 2 to be describing the Special Creation of Adam and Eve - - an event that science would not be prepared to detect.


#17

George, I’ve thought more about this idea of making room for special creation and though I’m not sure it will satisfy many strict literalists (death before the historical fall still an issue, etc), I think it could definitely help some embrace EC. I think I already shared somewhere that this is my 10-year-old daughter’s view. She understands the basics of evolution but for now prefers to think that Adam and Eve were made uniquely, with their offspring intermarrying with evolved humans. I don’t tell her what to think, and I never even proposed this as an option. :wink: She came up with it on her own. I suspect with time her views will “evolve” as all of ours tend to do.


(George Brooks) #18

@jasonbourne4

I think your prediction will be inevitably true.


(Theophilus Book) #19

I gave you the translation from King James Version. King James is NOT Young. He is very old.