Four Fun Ways to Teach Evolution

“Random” can mean many things. Particularly relevant for science-faith intersection meanings include:

A strict mathematical sense - something for which the best descriptions are the laws of probability. Will a fair coin be heads or tails when we flip it? Will this radioactive atom decay within the next half-life? Will offspring inherit this allele? What will happen when we cast lots?

A looser sense of “random” is something that is not mathematically random, but is not practically predictable. This includes mathematically chaotic systems (theoretically predictable, but too sensitive to precise details to actually predict thoroughly in practice) and systems that don’t have a known mathematical formula. What will the long-term weather be? What will the long-term course of history be? Will I see someone I know the next time I visit the store?

“Random” is also used to mean “purposeless” or “senseless” - “random violence”. Both atheistic and theistic sources often make the mistake of treating one of the previous senses of “random” as implying this sense. But that is not true. In part, the issue is that what has no purpose at one level of consideration has a purpose at another. For example, Genesis 1 affirms that all natural things and forces are parts of God’s good creation, not gods and monsters and the like. Thus, they do not have plans and goals of their own, but are parts of God’s plan. Science studies the workings of various parts of creation and so cannot detect the overarching purpose from such study. Ecclesiastes describes the difficulty of getting anywhere from such an “under the sun” perspective. However, if we are aware that God does have a purpose in all this, we will appreciate what we learn about science as being a part of God’s good plan, even if we don’t have much of a clue how it fits in. To the Aramean archer, his bowshot was random beyond “the enemy is that way”. But the arrow hit the gap in Ahab’s armor; it was not random to God. Likewise, I can have a purpose in flipping a coin, yet no amount of study of the coin or the laws of physics influencing its motion will help to figure out my purpose in the action.

Thus, examples of all three categories of “randomness” are identified in the Bible as being under God’s control. Obviously, there is a theological spectrum in the degree to which people believe that God determines every detail of what happens versus allowing certain levels of flexibility, or if there is flexibility, how much. I doubt that we are predestined to settle such debates here. Practically, the key Biblical assertions are that we are responsible for our actions and that we are to trust God’s control of things. Denying either aspect causes problems, but formulating how they fit with each other is challenging. For that matter, there is an equivalent atheological spectrum in the degree to which people believe that the laws of nature and the past determine the present, though it is often rather more poorly thought out and selectively applied (the ever-popular approach of blaming fate and blaming others but never taking responsibility oneself). Foolish debates exist claiming that particular experimental evidence favors determinism or indeterminism or that a favored philosophical system
is better supported by determinism or indeterminism. The reality is that one can interpret anything as being part of a deterministic or indeterministic system, and one can spin it in favor of or against other ideas.
But “random” does not mean that God is not in control. There may be a hidden plan behind each seemingly random event, or God’s plan may incorporate some level of flexibility. For example, does quantum uncertainty mean that some things are truly mathematically random, or should we think of it more as a measure of how fuzzy things are on the microscopic scale?

Determinism does not imply that things are pointless, because it implies that the way things happen is a part of the plan. But isn’t it wasteful to plan, for example, for someone to die in infancy? Only if the plan must be fulfilled by living longer. We do not know God’s full plan, and so cannot say, for example, that the panda’s thumb is a bad design. The panda’s thumb is not an ideal engineering solution to maximizing grasping ability (it’s a projection from a wrist bone, not an actual digit.) But that merely suggests that God’s purpose in making pandas was not to create The Amazing Super Thumb ™. Their thumb is good enough to grab enough bamboo for them to survive, and who knows how many other constraints are being balanced?

Evolution includes mathematically random aspects, mathematically chaotic aspects, and aspects with no good mathematical formula known. It is purposeless in the sense that evolution itself is not trying to make humans or otherwise make “progress”. Evolution is merely a pattern in nature and doesn’t have goals of its own, just as gravity does not have goals of its own. (Incidentally, this means that all claims to have “evolutionary” philosophies of how humanity ought to be making progress such as Marxism, eugenics, social Darwinism, etc. are wrong.) But none of that means that evolution implies that God cannot have goals of His own for evolution. If something works, that’s good enough for evolution; it is the fit enough and not just the fittest that survive.

Using games to understand evolution is a helpful approach; I may be able to work some of these into classes.

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Ha! :grin:  

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What are you trying to assert other than a broad definition of random?

the use of the word in TOE would be helpful here. As I understood it the occurrence of a deviation/mutation/change has no logical methodology or pattern. It could be termed chance but it is usually termed random. Would the use of the word chance make any difference? I guess it would remove any possibility of outside influence be it God or any thing else I am 100% convinced that the scientific proponents of TOE do not see any sort of outside influence, yet, from what I see here most Christians at least, just assume it is there. But it is not stated when they talk or argue it. To me this is deceitful and ultimately denying their Christianity.
Obviously there is nothing wrong with a Christian teacher teaching the sylabus which inscience will include TOE. But, if they hide thier own beliefs and just teach the science they are promoting the scientific view and denying the Christian view. Perhaps they feel they have no choice? But no one is holding a gun to their head.
I went on a four day course entitle Science and Christianity. But what i found was lectures on science and lectures on how Christianity embraces science. But the science was godless (because science does not recognise God) and it could have been lectured by an atheist.

This is my problem. TOE is taught unchallenged. It is taught scientifically. And as such it denies God. If a person claims rto be a Christian it should permeate all their life. Being a scientist is not an excuse to take time off from Chrstianity. If you canot incoporate it into your work then maybe you shouuld consider changing your work. Even ii ti=it is only an acknowledgment that TOE assumes there is no Divine influence and that. as a Christian you think there is. That would (IMHO) be enough.

But I do not see that here when Christians argue in favour of TOE.They just get upset when a Christian challenges them. Or even worse they basically claim that a Christian does not have a right to challenge them because science does not recognise God.and they are doing science not Christianity.(at that moment in time)

Richard

Richard

What should a Christian geneticist say about mutations in the human genome (scientifically, not theologically) when being interviewed on TV? Are they less of a Christian if they do not conflate science and theology, not mentioning God when talking about how mutations occur?

“If God controls every change then Natural Selection does not play any part.”

You were in control of typing that, yet computers and the laws of electromagnetism played important parts. Natural selection is an important pattern in the process of creating new kinds of organism. It can be tested experimentally and is quite important in understanding the interactions between diseases and populations, for example. But that does not tell us anything one way or another about God’s involvement. Conversely, the belief that God is in control to some degree does not tell us what methods He will use.

Precisely defining terms is important. What does it mean to say that natural selection (plus various other factors) “controls” evolution? What does it mean to say that God “controls” evolution? This combines the issue of different people having different ideas about how strict the control is and whether a natural law “controls” versus “describes”.

If you say “When I refer to the theory of evolution, I include in that phrase the idea that things are happening without God”; very well, I will know that you mean that and can interpret your wording appropriately. But someone else can say “when I refer to the theory of evolution, I am talking about a biological pattern, with no reference one way or the other to God’s role in the process.” Correctly interpreting what that person means requires following how they are defining the term.

“What are you trying to assert other than a broad definition of random?”

I am asserting that we need to clearly define what we mean by “random” and not claim that one meaning proves a different meaning.

The occurrence of a mutation has many factors that affect its probability. Some mutations are more likely than others. So there are patterns. But to the question “Will mutation X happen?”, our best human answer is “under these conditions, the probability is y%”. Thus, there is a mathematically random aspect to it. “Chance” seems fairly synonymous with “random”. But “probabilistic” is quite close in actual meaning, yet doesn’t sound as uncontrolled as the others.

The average scientific proponent of evolution hasn’t thought much about how God might or might not possibly be interacting with the processes. Certainly there are some who loudly claim that evolution removes God from the picture (whether anti-God or anti-evolution). But that’s like saying that praying for safety is meaningless because the laws of physics govern the behavior of objects. God is perfectly capable of making just as much or as little use of a particular “natural law” pattern as He wants to.

Because God has set up the world to run according to regular patterns, anyone can observe the world and see the patterns. We should not expect science to sound very different no matter whether a Christian or an atheist is talking about the scientific details. But the Christian appreciates the science as showing God’s working and wisdom, and has a higher motivation to do a good job.

Ezekiel 21:21-22 portrays God as controlling the outcome of Nebuchadnezzar’s attempts to use random (s.l.) omens for guidance: “…He will cast lots with arrows, he will consult his idols, he will examine the liver. Into his right hand will come the lot for Jerusalem…” as another example of biblical comments on the control of “random” things.

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I agree that we must read the Psalms remembering the genre. I do not know the relationship between God and time, except that I believe he is the Creator of space and time, and He was, He is and He will be.

My current interpretation is that God is in all three ‘directions’ of time simultaneously. He was(is), He is, He will be(is). If so, then God knows as well what happened and will happen. It would be like watching the events happening from the perspective of future.

Do we need to know about God and time in more detail? Perhaps not but it is comforting to know that nothing comes as a surprise to Him. When we end up in a difficult situation, He knew what would happen before it happened, is in control of the situation, and may have prepared an answer to prayers even before anyone knew what happens and the need to pray.

Sometimes it provokes questions like if you knew this before it happened, why did you not prevent it happening? That is a different question that would take much lines to comment.

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The relationship between God and time and free will is indeed a complex question and one I have not fully resolved. But just to clarify what Open Theism asserts (because many misunderstand) the idea is that although God does not know precisely all the details of how the future will transpire, he is NOT taken “off guard” by anything that happens. This is because he has perfect knowledge of the past and the present and exhaustive knowledge of the future as a range of possibilities (what may or may not happen given the conditions). And he knows how he will respond in each possible case of events. Like a master chess player, he knows all possible moves in the game, and knows how to react in the best way to the other free-will choices of the other players, whatever moves those players choose to make (“working all together for good”). So, according to this view, God still responds to prayers and reacts in a real way to prayers (he responds in his free will to requests of other actors given in free will). He does not coerce individual moves in “the game of life” --does not control or determine all of another’s moves—but we can still be reassured that he acts in The Game in a way that will accomplish what he intends (for good).

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Open theism and the belief that God knows everything before it happens are connected to the question if God is ‘within’ time (restricted by time almost like we are) or whether God can be ‘outside’ of time, look everything at the same time. That question relates to the question of what time is, and to the question if humans have free will. As far as I remember, the Open theism explanation was developed to save the free will, as it seemed that the classic understanding of God as all-knowing was not compatible with free will. As my previous comment showed, it is possible to combine both concepts, all-knowing God and free will.

The debate has lasted a millenium so it seems to be a difficult one to solve.
Luckily, the answer belongs to ‘nice to know’ matters, it is not an essential question for everyday life.

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Good points. I tend to think of God as knowing everything that is knowable, and able to direct things to achieve his will, being all powerful. But some things relating to free will while highly predictable due to his knowledge, are not fully knowable. Sort of in the same genre of the old can God create a rock too big for him to lift. It becomes a nonsense question of sorts.

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I don’t have any issue with free will and god knowing everything. I’m not 100% free will exists and I’m not 100% God knows everything. But with faith, I basically land on just accepting free will exists and God knows everything.

But just because God knows everything does not mean free will exists. To me it means free will exists, and God already knows the choices I’ll make. So I’m still making my own choices and he’s still aware of them all.

As mentioned before as a Christian I fall into this camp. I’ve been using the term Christian naturalist. I like it more than terms like evolutionary creationism or or theistic evolution. For me, my faith in a cosmic being best revealed through Jesus Christ has nothing to do with the natural world. I don’t think bumble bees fly because angels hold them. I don’t think there is this magically pull towards some soulmate in my life. I don’t think God actually created us. Maybe, in some way outside of what we will ever know God did something like set up laws don’t know. It’s a gap and in that gap I can say I don’t know or I can say god did it. I think god interacts with his creation… when I say interacts with his creation I just mean since he’s god he’s the ruler over us.

Take abiogenesis. Now I know we have no idea how abiogenesis occurred. There are so many debates from minerals being a cell wall to self replicating molecules with some preferences for superimposedable or non superimposedable molecules va L/D forms and so on. Was it something occurring in space first, thermal vents and so on.

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The logic and philosophy of time gets complicated really quickly and I’m glad its not an essential of the faith, but there are philosophers and theologians who think that “your” answer of God being “outside time” and seeing everything simultaneously can not logically save free will. The hitch is that God is an all-powerful being who creates the scenario and, prior to creation, he presumably had the power to create a range of different scenarios…but when God “sees and knows” the future is at the simultaneous moment he creates, and then it could not have occurred otherwise because he created it so. And hence according to that “outside of time” view, all is fully determined by God at the moment of creation. At least that’s where the debate around the compatibility with free will sits with me.

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Faith cannot accept science?
Science is facts all facts all the time. Science is fascinated by Creation and studies it assiduously.
Faith / belief is a vital, cherished notion which lacks full factual support (else it would be fact.)
When faith attempts to proscribe limits on Creation itself, faith is ill-founded.
Ask for a few examples.

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That is a common interpretation but I think it misses something.

God could give humans free will or not. If I remember correctly, the dominant understanding of the church fathers during the first centuries was that we have free will. Lets start with an assumption that we have limited free will - we usually have very limited options at any given moment but some amount of free will anyway.

Based on the decisions we make, our life can follow different tracks. When we look at our life before our death, we know how it went - the trajectory that was our life. God could be with us and say, yes that was how your life went. When looking back, there is no way to say whether the life was predestined or product of free will. Because of our basic assumption of free will, we know that everything happened partly because of our own decisions. That we know at the moment of death what the trajectory of our life looked like does not take the free will away. If God would be standing beside us and looked at our past life, he would also know how our life went and that would not either take the free will away.

If God is beyond time in the sense that He sees every moment at once, He can know the life of everyone by looking at our past life like a superhistorian who has perfect knowledge.

God has His plan. By looking what our decisions were, He can identify the points where someone is making decisions that could prevent His plan to happen. As He is, He can decide to interfere and alter the set of options the person can choose, so that the person cannot or will not make the conflicting decision. That would reduce the amount of free will but not take it away.

This scenario includes basic assumptions that we cannot prove, God giving humans some amount of free will and God being able to observe every moment simultaneously. Despite these caveats, the scenario shows how God could be all-knowing even if humans get free will.

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I don’t suppose we’re going to get to the base of this complex question on this thread :wink: Because I agree with much of the scenario you propose above, about looking back on the track of our lives. And Open Theism would also agree that God has perfect knowledge of past events, a “superhistorian”. And Open Theism would also agree that God can intervene in time/history to influence events if he wishes (only he cannot override the consequences of the freewill choices he has allowed the other actors or else it wouldn’t be freewill!). Open Theism only asserts that the nature of the future is that it exists as a range of possible trajectories, not as something fixed and knowable at the instant of creation.

I appreciate your response, but your points still to not clarify for me how “knowing all events simultaneously” fixes the dilemma of logic that, at the start of creation, (the instant God chooses to create the universe “this way” instead of “that way”, he would simultaneously know all events (past/present/future) according to your scenario, but because he himself has chosen (“determined”) those conditions for the universe among all other alternatives, he has determined all events “instantaneously” at the moment he creates…no Free Will possible in that case.

By the way, Open Theism would say that other free-will actors can indeed act against God’s will in the proximate sense (people have the freedom to choose evil although God wishes they would not), yet God’s ultimate plan…his End Game… the Grand Ending of the Story …cannot be thwarted by any of the “possible futures” that might occur. God is so supremely wise and intelligent that he knows how to “work together for good” all the evil and good moves, all the possible trajectories, that other free-will actors may or may not choose in the future.

It is the difference between omnipresent and omniscient.

Omnipresntet means power and control

Omniscient means all-knowing. Knowing does not mean controlling.

God can know what we do, even before we do it, without influencing or trying to guide or control. Judas was not forced to betray Christ. God already knew he would. But then agsin, as far as the plan was concerned someone had to. If not Judas, it would have been someone else.

God can be sovereign and all-knowing without keeping a tight reign on everything. In a sort of paradox He can influence without forcing. The choice is still ours. ONly God can really sort out the apparent temporal anomalies

Ours is not to reason… Why? How? If (even)?.

Perhaps this is the point where we must just throw up our hands and admit we just cannot know or even guess.

Richard

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That’s how I have always looked at it too.

Prophecies like the ones about Judas was not something God made happen but something he knew would. I think God knows what I’m going to eat tomorrow. Heck, I think I have a pretty good idea what my breakfast will be tomorrow. Blueberry and licorice pancakes. But it’s because it’s what I want. I could choose something else. But regardless, God already knowing what I’m going to eat is not for forcing me too.

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I first encountered open-view theism when reading Greg Boyd’s Letters From a Skeptic. I am very sympathetic to it. I don’t think the scriptural arguments are particular strong but I do see some of them. I like it just from the perspective of free will. The alternative is imagining He has two dimensions of time and that leads to all sorts of oddities to me and I am
Not sure what it even means to begin with. I also enjoyed his bit about God surrendering a degree of His power in creating us. I read a few popular books on it since. It’s one of those issues where I think we can lay out all the options but I’m hard-pressed to see how any certainty is to be found either way.

I think the theological point of Genesis 1 is difficult to reconcile with God not knowing the precise trajectory of evolution or not actively involving Himself in it to shape the world the way he specifically wanted. The whole universe seems fine-tuned for advanced carbon based life and God is showed carefully forming and filling until he gets to the climax of his creation. It’s seems that image of God is one who knows what He is doing. It’s not really an image of God who rolls dice. Though that image does come up in the second account.

Ii wonder if this is not truly embracing humans as accidents. If randomness is truly part of the world I would prefer believing in a God guided evolution. The alternative borders on a deist version of God where He sets things up and takes a complete hands off approach and let’s them roll. I’m all about methodological naturalism in science but I think that starts to border on philosophical naturalism. Science is a method of observing the world that sticks to natural explanations. That doesn’t mean God is or isn’t actively molding creation. In fact that may be the point of Genesis 1, until humans He was then He rested. If there is inherent randomness in creation then God actively shaping his creation after the Big Bang is not a design flaw, or God fixing His work. It is Him actively shaping creation the way He wants, something I think Genesis 1 is consistent with.

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Eureeka. Someone who has understood what I have been driving at. Vanity aside. This is what I have been trying to say all along.

Richard

Thanks for your well-articulated thoughts.
Yes, the question of the extent to which God controls or tinkers with evolutionary process after he creates is one we can only speculate on so I don’t have dogmatic views on it. But I wonder: Was is it God’s singular purpose to create self-conscious bipedal apes on planet Earth? Or would any relational, self-conscious, Agape-capable carbon based life form on any planet have fulfilled his purposes for relationship? Of course, in retrospect, Genesis (and the Bible) appears specifically “directed” to us because we are what evolved here, and the texts reflects on our experiences as humans on Earth in relationship to God.

I don’t see Open Theism as necessitating a complete “rolling of the dice”. There is nothing in OTheism preventing God from fine-tuning the physical aspects of the universe for carbon-based life. There is nothing in OTheism that says that God can’t know how he will react to the future actions of other free-will agents if those agents choose to do “X” (the God of OTheism is far from a Deist God). And there some are some biologists who think that given enough time and enough planets, a “complex, intelligent, social, self-conscious” life form would inevitably evolve somewhere, given the starting conditions-- with no further tinkering, such that the precise outcome of evolutionary trajectories (species morphologies) may unpredictable in one sense, but not rolling the dice in the broader sense of God’s purposes (relationship with Agape-capable created beings).

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