First, believing in miracles is not equivalent to discarding science. That sounds like a personal world view problem on your end. Some of us drink too much enlightenment kool aid.
Second, I think almost every Christian who has ever read or listened to the gospel accounts since they were first written almost 2,000 years ago has realized that they attribute nature-defying, supernatural powers to Jesus (whether of his own accord or from the father). You are literally the first Christian I have ever met, and quite possibly the only one who ever lived that reads the gospel stories and thinks Jesus walking on water is not presented as a supernatural miracle because there were no underwater cameras at the time. If you want to claim God put rocks under his feet fair enough. Still classifies as a miracle. Where did the rocks come from? How did they move?
A magician puts on a show on purpose as an illusion. They are not liars. They are entertainers. Jesus is the Son of God, not a magician.
No matter what you claim God has to intervene and change nature here. This isn’t about timing things perfectly. Did Jesus have metal cleats on, walking on wet ice in a storm? Again, how does the water in the sea of Galillee just instantly lose heat and turn to ice under Jesus’s footsteps? Are you trading in Jesus for a Disney Princess? I saw that movie 100 times. Let it goooo…
I think there have been too many people with too many experiences to dismiss ‘supernatural’ realities. Personally I think God still works miracles such as healing, typically through His people. I think one’s belief in such things is largely based on your trust of certain individuals who have had such experiences, if you have not personally experienced it yourself. Having said that I tend to be quite sceptical and do not just believe such and such has happened simply because someone has claimed it.
If you look at just about any of the miracles of Jesus as reported in the Gospels, the difference between before and after tended to be pretty obvious. Which is why people came to believe because those with integrity couldnt deny that reality.
Precisely my point. I believe in miracles WITHOUT discarding science and without believing in a God who trashes the laws of nature willy nilly for no good reason.
I do not accept your evaluation based on nothing but your imagination.
Glad you are learning something here and expanding your horizons.
I already said Jesus wasn’t a magician. Neither was He a necromancer, marvel comics superhero, or Hogwarts wizard. Jesus was 100% human. Human beings do not have supernatural powers.
Yes Jesus was 100% God. Because God chose to become a helpless human infant to grow up among us as one of us – 100% human.
Besides Jesus said 12 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do." And thus all He did was what any human being can do.
They were miracles because God, the Father was doing them. Jesus simply saw what the Father was doing. But none of that means that God was breaking the laws of nature He Himself created.
And that is where I disagree. God made the nature of the world so He could interact with it – so He doesn’t need to change it. And God is not more stupid and and lacking ingenuity compared to magicians. I say God can do things JUST as astounding as they do without breaking the laws of nature. Just because the readers and audience don’t see everything doesn’t mean the “abracadabra” is supernatural magic.
Can’t figure that one out? Doesn’t mean that God can’t! I can. All you need is for the top of the ice to have sand and gravel embedded in it.
There is nothing like that in the ESV version of the Bible. Is that one of the addition in your magical fantasy version?
The point I was making is that if you try to describe how it is supposedly done supernaturally you will find that it can be done without any supernatural powers at all.
Ice floats. Barely. And with a few impurities… or someone standing on it… Of course you don’t want it to sink to the bottom. LOL
Could have been. It would have be a really freaky thing eh? A gosh darn miracle! STILL doesn’t mean any laws of nature were broken. And doesn’t mean it wasn’t miracle either.
Like I said… I am not convinced that God would break His own laws just impress ignorant savages who wouldn’t even know the difference anyway. Astounding things are possible without breaking a single law of nature. So no… I will not let it go. I don’t believe in this stupid inconsistent god who you imagine just wants to show people how the laws of nature He created are unimportant and don’t matter to Him at all. I believe in what I SEE! I see miracles. But I DO NOT see violations of the laws of nature. Either the Bible is real or fantasy. If is real it is because it matches the reality we experience. Otherwise it goes on the shelf next to Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings.
Here is one of my issues with the “ to many claims “. There are tons of claims, and I mean tons of claims about Bigfoot and aliens. Tons of haunted houses and ghosts. Tons of claims of all kinds of things, just no actual evidence. All the people saying they can heal cancer, raise the dead, make a crippled man walk seem to never be able to do it in front of skeptics in a controlled environment. All the psychics, aura readers, astral projectors and so on also can’t do it in front of skeptics in a controlled environment either. You can pick any ten miracle workers you want from Christians to pagans and none of them will heal a cancer kid with the touch of a finger instantly. It does not matter what events happened in the Bible because that’s 2,000 years ago and not verifiable. We are taking about something here and now. There are arguments, theological arguments on why that is so.
So for those that believe in supernatural , reality breaking , powers utilized by those that worship Satan, do you believe in some sort of satanic cabal that is pulling strings somehow?
Indeed. No supernatural powers exist. Has nothing to do with miracles. None of these would be miracles if any of it were true. At most it would only tell us that the laws of nature are not what we thought. The laws of nature are by definition how the world works.
Miracle workers is a contradiction in terms. If it is a product of a worker then it obviously not a miracle but a simply the a type of science we didn’t know about or understand. But miracles do happen. And yes that includes people being cured of cancer.
Ok NOW you have made it clear that this does not apply to me, since I do not believe in such powers. I believe God and God is supernatural and God can do miracles. AND not only is God someone we cannot control but He made the laws of nature for reason and so logically He will uphold them. But is there really any Christians who do believe in such supernatural powers? Yeah I know some believe contrary to scripture that Jesus had supernatural powers. But setting that aside, do any believe that other people have supernatural powers?
I know I don’t believe that supernatural powers exist anymore. I have just noticed a trend among groups. Young earth creationist in general still believe that magic is real and they make up the bulk of the stories about some Christian in Africa or Asia that a missionary witnessed raising the dead, healing the sick and etc… they also believe strongly in witches , black magic, satanic cults and world powers and politicians eating babies and blah blah.
Then with other evolutionary creationist I’ve noticed that again the majority I talk with seem to believe that the apostolic powers still exists to this day and that there are stories floating around sheets these people , again mostly from their world nations, can heal the sick, raise the dead and dct… not through science and technology, but on the spot instant healing by just laying their hands on someone.
But then I noticed that even if they believe in satanic powers, it’s like they mostly don’t want to admit it because they think it sounds dumb. It’s like pulling teeth to get them to say, “ yeah I believe that witches exist using satanic magical powers “ and so on. So I kept trying to poke around at different concepts and see what are the examples they have. I think maybe one person showed a example.
I was simply curious what do other ECist believe about satanic powers and people being able to do something supernatural with it. I know I don’t believe that magic is real, or that anyone is in communication with a satanic power and ect…
I strongly suspect that God has given enough suggestions for us to believe that reality is not just four dimensional. Our three and a half (time goes only one way) can’t even describe the “real” me. There’s lots more than I can imagine to the things God has prepared for me, so I suspect my knowledge of God is even less than David’s understanding (5000 stars) of God’s Glory as now revealed by the latest telescope. WHAT A GOD WE WORSHIP!!!
I am a physicist so I am well aware that higher dimensions are a good tool in the physics of unified field theory. But I certainly do not agree with the idea that extending the mathematical structure of the physical universe to higher dimensions is sufficient to describe the non-physical or spiritual aspects of reality. I definitely believe in the compatibility of Christianity with science, but NOT the unification of Christianity with science. Science is founded on objective observation, but life requires subjective participation. Religion is about the latter not the former. Thinking you can make science into some kind of religion is a disservice to both science and religion.
Miracles do not get dispensed upon demand, nor are they dropped from a vending machine by plugging in your prayer coins. Sorry Nick, you should know that by now (as I’m sure you really do). And there is no such thing as a ‘science based’ one.