For those that believe in modern day supernatural miracles performed by Christians do you also believe in demonic supernatural powers?

So this is not a satirical or mocking question. Just generally curious. I’m not asking this question to debate cessstionism and so on. So I’ll mostly be reading to responding in a way that I believe is more aligned with dialogue than pushing for sources and debating.

I know there is a wide range of beliefs in here among other Christians concerning how and if supernatural miracles happen but I never really see anything on the demonic side. Probably should have asked this question in October. When asking about the supernatural I often hear statements about so and so knew a missionary, or so and so was in some mysterious foreign land and witnessed this and that with miracles from God, and likewise, when bringing up stuff like a group of people dedicated to the worship of demons or evil gods the unholy miracles ( dark magic and so on ) I hear the same thing. Missionaries on some island witnessed a hoodoo ( though they normally say it’s voodoo ) priest doing something supernatural and evil. I often hear of witches in the Philippines and even people taking stories such as the one of Legion ( many demons ) and Nebuchadnezzar merging it into something like a werewolf tormenting places like the icy outskirts of Russia. Just curious on the thoughts of those that believe in modern day supernatural miracles if they also believe in the modern day supernatural evil miracles / black magic as well. If not…. Why one and not the other?

Why don’t you make it a poll and allow comments or laughter or whatever, and maybe even an introduction to a demon, or at least a satanist?

P.S. There’s a Netflix 4-Episode Mexican Docuseries, titled “My Encounter with Evil” in Spanish but with English subtitles and English audio translation (2022) written and filmed just for you. :rofl:

P.P.S. I think you hang around a lot of people who know Missionaries. You need to get out more often. Find someone who actually is a practicing believer in satan and demons, and ask them for an introduction to Satan or some of his demons. Get your feet wet, so to speak.

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Pretty helpful video by Michael Heiser on demons. I started listening to it this morning and will probably finish watching it tonight.

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I believe in miracles, and I believe in angels, and I believe the devil exists. btw, back in the day when monks copied manuscripts by hand, they believed there was a demon who introduced copying errors! Can’t recall the name though.

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I can’t tell if you’re trying to be funny and joking or if I struck another cord of yours. Are you suggesting that you’ve met some “ real dangerous hardcore magical satanists and demons?”

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I’ve probably seen it. I listen to his podcast and I’ve also followed the back and forth between him and Walton over how they present “demonology” in their books.

  • Are you suggesting that you’ve met some “ real dangerous hardcore magical satanists and demons?”
    • Not me!

Ha! So if you and someone else have irreconcilable differences, you’re rational and just happen to be striking one of their chords when they mock you? V-e-r-r-r-y interesting

What post would that be?

When did I mock you?

I even stated in the post that this is not mocking anything. I’m curious if y’all also believe in things like witches, or actual satanic cabals that have conversations with Satan and ect… nothing in my post was even the slightest mocking.

Which is why I asked if you were being funny or if instruct a cord. But you just answered it. By me asking a simple question about other peoples beliefs, it seems that triggered you. I can’t help how you misinterpreted it.

I don’t have issues with your Terry. I understand you don’t like me. I just don’t care. I go out of my way to not get under your skin. I’ve purposely not disagreed with you on numerous posts and made sure to like several of them. I mostly read and just ignore you. Opinions are just opinions. Opinionated people who are barely acquaintances from one websites forums is just that…

I can’t help but notice this happens quite a bit. So just know, whatever imaginary war you have with me online, it’s one sided. If you think I’m mocking you, I’m probably not. Unless you’re a conservative Republican young earth creationist the chances that I’m just mocking you in a post , or mocking your mindset in a post, is very unlikely. At least in these forums. I’m not even sure why you seem to often think I’m mocking your beliefs. Let’s not pretend like we know each other. I suggest you get over who you think I hang out with. You don’t know me in the slightest. You definitely don’t know who or where I hang out. I could give you a hundred guess and outside of knowing I hang out in nature and go to church, you’ll never guess most likely. You might not even know the types of places I frequent even exists.

OOPSIE! Fixed it

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I believe in miracles, and I have no reason not to believe angels, demons, and the devil exist because the Bible speaks of them. AND I know the laws of nature are not absolute…

BUT the gap in the laws of nature is a narrow one leaving little room for anything obviously supernatural. And that gap only allows for the redirection of events on the quantum level and not any suspension of the laws of nature. Furthermore I see no reason why God should act against the very laws of nature He created. So while I believe in miracles, I do not believe they are magical and defying the laws of nature. Thus in all these miracles, I expect a great deal of subjective perception to be involved as well as any number of scientific oddities. Look up the various theories explaining the mana mentioned in the Old Testament. Does this mean the miracles I believe in are not supernatural, for even if there is a scientific explanation for how they happened, it doesn’t mean they do not have an ultimate supernatural origin and cause?

And since I don’t believe even Jesus had any supernatural powers (unless knowing how God is working in the world counts as such a power) then does that mean the question of the thread doesn’t apply to me? I have little doubt there are evil magicians who can do tricks of their own and some of those may even have an origin and cause in devils and demons. But I am quite sure those will not be contrary to the laws of nature either (and thus have a scientific explanation in that sense).

In all cases skeptics can dismiss these things as coincidence and thus I see little reason for Christians not to do the same in the case of works of evil. Why give evil that much credit and attention?

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  • That, IMO, is truly one of the most informative sources on the topic that I have ever seen.
  • RE: From Heiser’s book referenced on the opening note below the video.
    • What does the Bible really tell us about the powers of darkness?
      • The truth about demons is far stranger—and even more fascinating—than what’s commonly believed.
        Are demons real? Are they red creatures with goatees holding pitchforks and sitting on people’s shoulders while whispering bad things? Did a third of the angels really rebel with Satan? Are demons and “principalities and powers” just terms for the same entities, or are they different members of the kingdom of darkness? Is the world a chaotic mess because of what happened in Eden, or is there more to the story of evil?
        What people believed about evil spiritual forces in ancient biblical times is very different than what people have been led to believe about them today. And this ancient worldview is missing from most attempts to treat the topic.
        In Demons , Michael Heiser debunks popular presuppositions about the very real powers of darkness. Rather than traditions, stories, speculations, or myths, Demons is grounded in what ancient people of both the Old and New Testament eras believed about evil spiritual forces and in what the Bible actually says. You’ll come away with a sound, biblical understanding of demons, supernatural rebellion, evil spirits, and spiritual warfare.
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Did Walton respond to Heiser’s podcast?

And do you believe in divination, magic, witchcraft, spells, curses, ghosts, Ouija boards, answers to prayer, words of knowledge, healing, horoscopes, the I-Ching, dowsing, UFOs, etc, etc, etc, … all pseudoscience … etc, … all superstition?

Not that I’ve heard so far. But Walton never really debates in that sense that I’ve noticed. He mostly does a circle of showing his views and then eventually he will write an article or do a talk where he will fit in some of the questions that have been tossed at him, but usually that response is not a direct one, more like he will fit the question in without acting like it’s a rebuttal, but instead a natural flow of this talk and so on.

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I believe in God and I put that in the same category as most of these others.

Am I superstitious?

Of course. It is how the human brain works. We seek patterns in the random events around us and they rarely have much truth to them. But science at the very least demonstrates that just because we are superstitious doesn’t mean all of the patterns we see have no truth to them.

…NO… Something is ONLY pseudoscience when it pretends to be science (and is not)!!!

These are generally highly subjective in the words they use and since life requires subjective participation it is no surprise to me that these work well for many people.

Personally? I dabbled in I-Ching when I was very young… but I have never found much use in any of this stuff. BUT I do not confuse my personal experience with the limits of reality.

Also (perhaps from upbringing by two psychology majors) I see considerable psychological value in things like astrology because they cause people to reflect and think about themselves.

I believe in magic as an allegorical representative of the invisible powers of the heart and spirit. I believe in the power of stories to reveal the unseen in symbolism and metaphor. And so it is without reservation that I can say that I believe in Santa Claus. But this does not mean that I expect to find anything on an expedition to the north pole. However, there is a kind of magical thinking, which I do not believe in at all. This magical thinking often takes the form of making deals with God (or the devil), supposing that if we do (or promise to do) certain things that we think God wants us to do, then somehow we will get what we desperately want. More generally there are all sorts of magical systems of belief that we can control our destiny by doing things that have no rational connection to the events in our life – all nonsense.

So, I do not believe in a magical god or magical Christianity. I think the idea of magic comes from our experience of infancy, where we cry out to the world and more knowledgeable and able beings run around to answer our needs. Applying such a concept to God is clearly ridiculous. So no I don’t believe God is a necromancer with magical powers like words of command making golems of dust and bone or poofing things into existence. Everything God created had to come from His own knowledge and ability.

So removing the magic from witchcraft, spells, and curses, there is still the very subjective nature of human life and existence, wherein such things may work for people.

I have a sister who is atheist, and who believes in ghosts because of personal experience. I must admit to some suspicion of suggestibility and created memories… and I never saw a great amount of objectivity in my sister about most things… but obviously I cannot know that such is the correct explanation for her experiences. I don’t believe in transmigrating rational souls – anything put into bodies which make them alive or a person. So if there is any external reality to ghosts I don’t know what they could be… echos? But until proven otherwise I will put such stories of them down to purely subjective experiences.

These have all the same character of these other subjective spiritual experiences and since the laws of nature make actual visitations by aliens unlikely in the extreme, that is what I judge such experiences to consist of.

Yes. God is real and the laws of nature were created by Him to enable a relationship with His creation. Not magic. But a part of the very real subjective aspect of reality and our experience of it, where not everything is about objective causes and scientific explanations.

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So do you think all the miracle stories outside of exorcisms are fabrications?

I meet a lot of Christians , and non christians such as people who claim to be wiccans, druids and even satanist who believe in modern day magic as the equivalent to the powers of the Holy Spirit. They also claim things like astral projection and having a sort of spirit body able to leave the physical body. Many also believe that they can preform rituals to cause “spiritual attacks “. I’m thinking of things along the line of Rebecca Brown’s books. Anyone have experiences , or know of people like that? The typical stuff you see in Wicca or some other form of pagan books or forums?

Nope. No fabrications. No supernatural powers either. I don’t see any of the stories requiring this. That is Jesus’ own explanation in the Bible. He just sees what the Father is doing, and any of us can do what He did or even greater things. Any great magician (or engineer… or doctor… etc.) can show you that astounding things are possible without any suspension of the laws of nature whatsoever. Does this mean I think Jesus was a magician. Nope. They really were miracles, because they were the work of God. So the Father was the one demonstrating all the supernatural power? Nope. No supernatural powers or tricks on the part of Jesus either. Only God’s providential timing and Jesus’ awareness of it, to see the miracles possible in the world God created according to natural law. I don’t think a violation of the laws of nature is the correct definition of a miracle.

Deception? Nope. NOBODY EVER said that any supernatural powers or suspension of the laws of nature were involved in any of these miracles. What is said is closer to the opposite that anybody can do these things and greater.

I know some Wiccans. They were in charge of a memorial service for my father after he died. My family visited a year later for a religious education experience. My wife thought it all looked a great like the old religion of farmers in her own country of Japan.

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I know a handful as well since my grandparents and much of my family has this blend of Christianity and paganism. Though they don’t call it paganism, they believe that the other gods are angels and subject to Yahweh and so they fall into the angel worshipping sects of Christianity but just like Catholics do with saints, they say it’s not worship, it’s getting aid. Particularly from one angel. Just like the idea of Michael being the angel over the Jews and other angels being the angel presiding over other nations, they believe in angels that watch over specific families and that there is a angel that has been overlooking our family, and the angels under him, going back to a few hundred years to when a Russian man met a Chukchi woman. The war was breaking out and so they sent their daughter to Denmark with some others and when they did they sent one of the “ cooking stars “ a angel with her to protect her. They also did “mushroom” worship and rituals.

One of my favorite authors is Donald Tyson who is a pagan. I like his fiction and non fiction. I just don’t believe in it. I really like this book but my dad roots books by him are the fictional Alhazred books. With the astral book, I enjoy reading it and about supposed encounters with beings in various planes and dimensions but again, I read it as fiction even if it’s meant to be read as non fiction. But from being big into nature areas I come across lots of Wiccans and others who follow what they call “ nature religions “. Especially in the mushroom groups.

They often tell me of weird experiences and haunted houses and so on. It’s kind of like with Christians and supernatural miracles of talking in tongues, witnessing teenage exorcisms and so on. I hear about, never see it. Don’t believe in it. I just listen to them. I went with a group of “ ghost hunters “ to a place nearby that is supposed to be known for alien sightings and ghosts and when there a few people swore they saw or felt or heard something. I did not.

“Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.” -Colossians 4:6

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