Expressing bad attitudes to historians and critical scholarship without realizing it

paleomalacologist · December 22, 2024, 1:16am

The ultimate act of creation is indeed miraculous, by definition. But paying attention to Genesis 1 finds the phrase “let the earth bring forth”, rather than direct ex nihlo, for certain components of the creation. And of course God’s ongoing work in creation uses physical means, e.g., the “knitting together” of each individual person. Creating the earth and its inhabitants through ordinary means of natural laws does not contradict the ultimate ex nihlo origin. (However, it should be noted that many in the early and medieval church thought that creation might be eternal, yet created, to always have a work of the Creator.)

I have consistently affirmed that Noah’s flood is a real event. But the claims of flood geology are impossible, contradicting Scripture, physics, chemistry, geology, astronomy, and biology. Likewise, there is no good reason to doubt that Moses and the exodus are real events; nobody brags about being escaped slaves. But there is good reason to think that the number of people in the exodus is misinterpreted by most translations - there are various inconsistencies that indicate we’re not understanding something correctly, besides needing to be able to actually fit everyone in Sinai.

The virgin conception of Jesus is affirmed as a specific exception to the normal way things happen. But that is different from having specific evidence that it did not happen. The geological evidence clearly indicates that no global flood has happened at least in the past 3.5 billion years; before that would not exactly be a flood if the earth started underwater. Acts says that the locals thought that the snakebite would be fatal, not that the snake was venomous; stray snakes could show up with cargo even if the island lacked native venomous species at the time (given some uncertainty on identifying the island).

In other words, your characterization of theistic evolution is inaccurate. It’s a broad category, and not everyone believes the same thing, just as not all young-earthers believe in geocentrism.

adamjedgar · December 22, 2024, 8:32am

Look i have to pull you up there…that is simply untrue.

Your version of the geoligical evidence suggests that…however your version also accepts that the fossil record is found within sedimentary deposits related to water… even the asteroid impacts theory for the extinction of dinosaurs caused huge tidal waves…you are arguing no against your own observations that support the biblical flood!

Even the YEC mldel has no problem with dust storms causing extinction…why wouldnt the breakup of the fountains of the deep be consistent with that? Also, we know God caused fire to fall from heaven on at least two occasions in the Old Testament (Elijah and Sodom and Gomorah)…i dont see why we should necessarily exclude that from Noahs flood? Perhaps he did also cause asteroids to hit the earth in the flood…maybe some asteroids were first ejected from the earth when the fountains of the deep burst fourth and came crashing back again…why cant this be a scientific hypothesis given such a theory would also fit the bible historical account as well as its theology?

It gets worse for you than just the above…you trash stephen myers intelligent design belief largely for the wrong reason. Stephen claims genetic code is evidence for intelligent designer, God. This forum seems to muddy the waters on that notion by jumping ship to the secular no God model and using that to earbash myers claim that the statistics of secularism cannot account for enough time for even a basic addition that isnt fatal to the organism. Accorring to the hoover institute interview “Mathematical challenges to darwin” the chances are so small they are impossible. You say they are possible becahse in your version tbose changes are here…you can see evidence of them. But i have to challenge, where are the intermediatries on a large scale for it? Even the cambrian explosion is highly problemitic…it all appears too quickly in that layer to fit the mathematical dilemmas given there are so many significant appearances of sudden change.

I honestly do not believe you realise what you do here to your own notion of God…its no wonder atheists laugh at Theistic Evolution…you have so many inconsistencies in your religious belief, you are representing a basket case of confused cofllicting theology.

You still bave not addressed the theological issues. Making claims…“there are various inconsistencies”…what inconsistencies…what evidejce do you have supporting your conclusion about the exodus population? What average life expentancy are you using for the claim only a few thousand Israelites left Egypt? If you claim the bible is wrong on the 600,000 men besides women amd children…how do you then believe the mircaulous biblical claims if you dont believe the historical ones (especially given Christ has 2 linesges listed going back from.whivh we can reference. We can even cross check those genealogies in the Old Testament story…how do you account for that issue? I argue you cant…so instead you choose to straw pluck…ignoring what isnt convient. I dont ignore any of it…and i certai ly dont explain away citing “no kne brags about being escaped slaves” …honestly, that is your defense? That wouldnt even stand up in a modern court of law, and yet here you are using it to defend your faith and worldview? How is that scientific?

Your claim a out the “locals in Acts thought the snakebite would be fatal”…

Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance
viper.
Of uncertain origin; an adder or other poisonous snake (literally or figuratively) – viper.

Google AI result for the question…"was the snake that bit the apostle Paul poisonous

The point is, the locals held a spiritual belief that an evil act recieved divine judgement at the hands of a poisonous snake…this wasnt an Aboriginal “pointing the bone” tribal meeting judgement where an individual is then excluded from the tribe and sent off into the Australian wilderness to die. In the Australian indignenous model, the individual believed it was the bone that would cause their death…so much so, they died from self imposed dehydration and starvation…clearly an act of suicide!

(You will have to excuse spelling and grammar mistakes…im fighting a phone keyboard too small for my fingers and a screen too small to see properly. Its so frustrating i could friggin smash this f$%#r with a hammer!)

knor · December 22, 2024, 1:14pm

There is a possibility to take the description as it was written and conclude that the 600,000 men is probably a wrong interpretation. There is an article showing this:

Humphreys, C.J. 1998. The number of people in the Exodus from Egypt: decoding mathematically the very large numbers in Numbers I and XXVI. Vetus Testamentum XLVIII, 2

Here is the Abstract of the article:
“A mathematical analysis is given of the very large numbers of people at the Exodus from Egypt
recorded in the book of Numbers. It is shown that if there were “273 first born Israelites who exceed the number of Levites” (Num. iii 43), then the total number of Israelite men aged over 20 in the census following the Exodus was about 5000, not 603,550 as apparendy recorded in Numbers. The apparent error in Numbers arises because the ancient Hebrew word 'lp can mean “thousand”, “troop”, or “leader”, according to the context. On our interpretation, all the figures in Numbers are internally consistent including the numbers at both censuses, the encampment numbers, etc. In addition we deduce that the number of males in the average Israelite family at the time of the Exodus was 8 to 9, consistent with the concern of the Egyptians that the Israelites had “multiplied greatly” whilst in Egypt (Exod. i 7). The total number of men, women and children at the Exodus was about 20,000 rather than the figure of over 2 million apparently suggested by the book of Numbers.”