Expressing bad attitudes to historians and critical scholarship without realizing it

A conversation with many commentors on this forum and elsewhere over time few made me realise that some Christians express bad attitudes towards critical science and historical reconstruction without realising that that is what they are doing. This being the case, I thought it might be worthwhile to make a note of some of the things that I hear from time to time in Christian circles that (possibly unintentionally) sound condescending, dishonest, suspicious, passive-aggressive, judgmental or hostile.

These are they.

The expression “secular history.” There is no such thing as “secular history” History has rules **[methodology]**and honesty has rules, and the rules are the same for Christians and secularists alike. To talk about “secular history” is like talking about “secular measurement” or “secular honesty” or “secular facts.” It’s basically a refusal to play by the rules.

Denouncing historical findings that you don’t like as “compromise.” Once more, this is a refusal to play by the rules. If someone is telling you to stick to the rules of historical investigation and your response is to accuse them of “compromise,” then you are effectively saying that the rules of historical investigation should be disregarded. That is antagonism towards history, period.

The only time when an accusation of “compromise” might be warranted is if you have evidence that the rules are demonstrably being broken and that there is a concerted effort to hush it up. Even then, you need to make sure that both you, and the person whom you are accusing of compromise, know what the rules of history actually are.

Denouncing historical judgments that you don’t like as “atheist.” Unless you can demonstrate that atheism really is the decisive factor behind a particular finding (and this is rarely if ever the case), then you’re simply not getting your facts straight.

Snide remarks about “putting your trust in history” or “having more faith in history than in God.”

Claims that “historians are always changing their minds.” Historians only change their minds in controlled and disciplined ways in response to new data or new techniques for analysing the data. To portray history as an arbitrary, make-it-up-as-you-go kind of affair when in actual fact it is rigorous and disciplined is a false accusation against hard working historians. As an example, this occurs when Christian dismiss findings of critical scholarship by pointing out that a school of “liberal” German scholars once dated GJohn late hundered of years ago. They even go on to uncritically cite the Rylands fragment with outdated information, not realizing that it may date as late as the early 200s.

Referring to historical theories as “athiestic” when they have nothing to do with atheism This is basically dividing historical reconstruction in two, using “history” to refer to the bits that you are prepared to accept and “atheism” to attack the bits that you aren’t. This is an intrinsically anti-historically attitude.

Talking about “assumptions” without stating clearly what the assumptions in question actually are. Assumptions are not a get-out-of-jail-free card; you have to justify your claim that they could have been violated in a way that remained consistent with whatever alternative hypothesis you are proposing.

Loaded questions. This was the main problem that I had with the “How to talk to scientists about Jesus” article—it comes across as trying to win an argument rather than trying to actually learn something. And often enough Christians come into the debate with all the right answers (meaning their interpretation of their sacred scripture) and are interested in just harmonizing everything with what they already believe.

Approaching historical reconstruction and critical scholarship that is done at university level and published in peer reviewed journals as an ammunition-gathering exercise for apologetic purposes. This is a recipe for completely misunderstanding the subject, getting things wrong, quote mining, and undermining your exam results 5.

Discouraging your young people from pursuing historically-based biblical careers (aside from textual criticism—the “safe” field). This does happen from time to time. Parents, pastors and youth leaders who try to divert historical and rational-minded young people away from fruitful careers in the historical science onto other tracks (including “biblical-based history”) are doing them a disservice and in some cases may be setting them up for failure and frustration.

These are just a few of the examples that I can think of off the top of my head. A couple of other takeaways.

  • Remember that historical reconstruction has rules. It’s not so much a rejection of specific historical findings that makes people come across as antagonistic to science. Rather, it’s a refusal to play by the rules when doing so.
  • Remember that history is a practical and probability based-judgment. Make sure that you fully understand how the mechanics of history work before attempting to tackle the philosophy of history.
  • Remember that historical reconstruction is the basis for people’s jobs and careers. Teaching things about historical reconstruction and critical scholarship that are incorrect, misleading or confusing can undermine people’s ability to do their jobs properly. Especially if you are attaching a strong doctrinal importance to the incorrect, misleading or confusing claims in question.
3 Likes

FOFL

It does seem, sometimes, that scientists consider themselves apart from everyone else, even needing special attention. The idea that you can only answer a scientific theory with science, being a prime example.

Richard

1 Like

Even as an atheist and a scientist, I certainly don’t believe this. Much of human experience is subjective and outside of the purview of science. I don’t pretend to have a scientific answer to why I like certain music or prefer bourbon over Irish whiskey. I don’t look for scientific answers to why I love my family or enjoy spending time with them. However, the scientific method has shown itself to be a very, very reliable way to understand the objective universe around us.

1 Like

You’ve got a good point here, @Vinnie. I’m pretty sure that the problem at hand isn’t unique to science by any means. You’re going to get people coming out with shenanigans against every area of scholarship while at the same time claiming to be in favour of it.

However, different areas of scholarship will have their own specific shenanigans to contend with. Just copying the ones for science and swapping out the word “science” for “history” or “historical reconstruction” or “critical scholarship” looks kind of awkward.

1 Like

I think you misunderstood me. It’s not so much about imposing science on everything as being possesive of what science covers. If it is science then it cann only be science. I find this blinkered. Even science has a subjective and philosophical element that goes beyong the data.Especially when the amount and type of data available is liitited.

There is one more point you might like to consider.

often the criticism or even insult is intentional. People slag of journalism and politics as if they have no moral code at all.

Perhaps sometime we do not realise the significance or consequence of our words, but i think you will find that often the intent is there, deliberatey camoflagred to keep PC.

Richard

Well, if it isn’t science then it isn’t science. Not sure what you are complaining about.

Examples?

Trey looking t up

The Philosophy of science

Just one of many/

Basically it covers metaphysics but there are other aspects.

Cosomoslogy is as much about principles as it is about specific data.Of course I include Evolutionary theory , but that is enevitable. The point is that science abstracts principles such as mass related gravity that are based on data. You cannot weigh the earth but I am certain someone has decided what it is.

Virtually every scientific paper has an absstract section.

Youu are still not getting it.

@jammycakes has said more than once

Iff you want to argue against a scientific theory you must use sicence to do it.

IOW if you want to play you must do it in my playground, using my rules.

The whole point of this OP is the eletist attitude of scientists

Richard

:astonished:

1 Like

Nearly every academic paper has an abstract, independent of topic or area of study. It saves researchers time the way a blurb on the back of a book does. This is a problem?

1 Like

Yes, it basically summarises the conclusions, which, by definition are subjective to the data .

A theory has two parts, the data and the conclusions drawn from them. These conclusions may be obvious, or compelling but they can also be disputed. That is the philosophical or subjective part to any Scientific statement or conclusion. it s there whether you like it or not.

Richard

I expressed no view on the possibility of subjectivity in scientific theory, but only foscused on the minutae related to an abstract. I will let profis address philosophy of science.

A good abstract does more than summarize conclusions. For example:

What Is an Abstract in a Paper?

An abstract is a concise summary of the details within a report. Some abstracts give more details than others, but the main things you’ll be talking about are why you conducted the research, what you did, and what the results show.
From: How to Write an Abstract (With Examples)

I’m concluding that Richard hasn’t read enough academic papers to know what an abstract is.

You really do not read what i write do you.

The reason it is called an abstract?

The derivation of the meaning of the noun abstract? (Why it is not just called a summary)

Perhaps you need to study language rather than just science.

Richard

I do - for entertainment.

It’s not called a summary because it isn’t a summary.

I don’t need to study language - which I probably do more than you anyway - to know that you haven’t the faintest idea what you are talking about.

Vanity, vanity, all is vanity.

You see what you want to see and never look in a mirror.

Richard

Empty platitudes. If you were right, and you actually knew what a scientific paper’s abstract contained, you wouldn’t need to resort to them.

Hmm, let’s see.

It lays out what area or principle it is going to address.

Principle.
noun

  • 1.a fundamental truth or proposition that serves as the foundation for a system of belief or behaviour or for a chain of reasoning:"the basic principles of justice"Similartruthpropositionconceptidea
  • 2.a general scientific theorem or law that has numerous special applications across a wide field.

So does that mean a scientific principle is somehow different from a general principle?

Teorum
scientific theory, systematic ideational structure of broad scope , conceived by the human imagination, that encompasses a family of empirical (experiential) laws regarding regularities existing in objects and events, both observed and posited

Of course sicentitst put it ia much more enigmatic and positive way.

But it still amounts to the same.

Theorums are conceived by the human mind after assessing real data and extrapolated (posited) data.

Anything else you want to confirm?

Richard

Im sorry but i find this thread an unusual one because given im a pretty loud oponent of many of the “secular” scientific interpretations on these forums, im struggling to recall any of my posts here grumbling about “secular historical findings”.

Also, the claim here on these forums about apologetics is a typical attempt to sidestep the lousy theology that such a habit brings to the table. If you are incapable of defending poor theology and doctrine, and have to support that by claiming apologetics should be considered the scourge of your problems, then perhaps the answer is to improve the apologetic rather than stick head in the sand and hope that the “lit fire cracker” laying on the surface right beside you isnt real.

I also tire of the notion that anyone dissagreeing with these forums ideas are bad scientists, express bad attitudes, or whatever argument suits. I guess my point is, generically, that complaint goes both ways and its about time its gets owned rather than used as cannon fodder.

Close, but no cigar.

It’s not “science” that I’m demanding. That’s too ambiguous and too much open to debate about exactly what you are referring to when you use the word “science.” It encompasses both the philosophy of science and the mechanics of science, for starters.

My demands are more precise and specific. Namely, honest reporting and honest interpretation of accurate information. Accurate and honest measurement. Mathematical and logical consistency. Technical rigour. And so on and so forth.

And of course you need to play by those rules. For the simple reason that anything else is lying. “Elitist attitudes of scientists” have nothing whatsoever to do with it.

5 Likes

Honest interpretation?

Are you clamming that, if someone gives an alternative explanation to the one you use it must be dishonest?

In Christian circles that is called dogma.

What is the Truth?

That is a question outside the realm of Science.

Richard