They camped at Kadesh 11 days after leaving Sinai and it was from there that the spies were sent out. So I would grant you, say, a reduction of 300km in the round trip. It makes little difference.
There is no mention of them using horses; that’s just made up.
Spies would not have used horses anyway because it would have drawn attention to themselves.
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You cannot ride horses for 15 to 20 days at 100km/day. You have to reckon half or a quarter of that. Remember horses need considerable time to graze. A courier system where the courier switches to fresh horses every few miles would be faster but spies wouldn’t have that.
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It’s bad enough the Israelites taking 40 years to do a 3 day journey, how much longer would it have taken to do a 300 day one? They’d still be on their way surely? With 500 years to go?
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One very famous possible location is above St Catherines Monastery. This location is famous because that is where Codex Sinaiticus was found in the mid 1800’s.
There is a lot of conjecture about this particular site however, the question being asked about the site… could 1 million people have camped at its base around a Tabernacle? (which was always central in the Israelite camp and they were arranged around it).
Some claim other locations because of possibly a better suitability for the size of the israelite camp. You can google these easily…they are well-known alternatives.
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Why not? They do in movies all the time. 
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Egypt build with stone no need for straw
No fathering is suggested, rather common ancestors.
The historicity of the Bible is often questioned because of geographical mismatched and lack of archaeological evidences. These problems get resolved in the Indus Valley. So the purpose is to establish the historical authenticity of the Bible and strengthen the Word of God.
Unfortunately you are right. They feel threatened because their possibly incorrect notions of West Asian roots is ripped away. It is like a patient being afraid of surgery for his chronic ailment.
Thanks Riversea…You ask lots of questions and that is a good thing, although they go in various directions.
I think the puzzling thing here is why/how Bharatjj decided that he believes something occurred, but that it occurred a whole continent away from the place that is identified by the only text to talk specifically about that event…
The Exodus in the Bible involved the descendants of a people-group who had left the region of ancient Canaan several centuries before. Their ancestor had been called out of a polytheistic environment in still another region—NOT the Indus Valley but in the region of ancient Sumeria/Babylon, which again is NOT the Indus Valley. This man turned his back on the polytheism of his birthplace… And so did his descendants, who moved to Egypt in the face of a famine (something people in that region did from time to time). The general story is that they returned (perhaps accompanied by others ) to the lands of ancient Canaan under the leadership of a member of their ethnic group. He had been raised among Egyptian royalty in his youth and spent his adulthood in some of the very regions through which he was to lead this large group of people during the Exodus… There is, and always has been, lots of chatter about the details of all that. Some note that the biblical text cites old military routes, cultural details, and names places that have evidence of military usage in the past, plus routes known to have been used by others to escape, plus the presence of Egyptian loan words in ancient Hebrew …so on and so forth…many more points on that score. The discussion goes forth.
When some question as to why there is not more specific evidence, they hear a range of responses. It’s not original, but when a speaker at another symposium was asked that question a few months back, he noted that there are a lot of events in ancient near eastern history for which there is no evidence, try though researchers might …or for which there MAY (if we are lucky) be ancient references…but NO archaeological evidence…if even that. And no Pharoah was going to laud the success of some escaped slaves.
That is just one thing.
Bh…is trying another idea, positing a valley in a region far removed from any event or locale that makes sense. Canaan was a dilapidated place, sparsely populated in those days. Barley and wheat aplenty – sure. But was there nothing of that in the Indus Valley? If Canaan was dilapidated, was the Indus worse?
I do not see the rationale in such a suggestion…for which there is no evidence…unless someone is trying to hitch their personal theory to this event. What is that theory? That Hinduism is the father of Judaism?. Well…hold to it if you like. But the biblical text is decidedly monotheistic. Not polytheistic. The difference between the two belief systems is pretty stark. “Hear O Israel, the Lord your God, the Lord is one…” and more throughout. The theory of the Indus Valley exodus is a one-off idea with no support.
And yes, Jesus took the penalty for the sins of all people.But we are on a somewhat different quest here. Just consider: When you make dinner for your children, you are providing food for them. But some of the children may decide to eat out that night, and so they do not eat the dinner. Others may be stubborn and say that they do not like whatever it was…or they are on a diet…etc. You still provided the meal. You made the offer. Their consumption of it was/is their choice…
OK…I could go on but I would be repeating myself. I frankly believe that the Exodus event happened. It may not have been a Cecile B DeMille production…or anything close to that. And whatever occurred, however it occured…there is far more reason to believe it happened with Semitic people already known to be living and working in the Nile Delta travelling across the region of the Sinai, possibly following old military routes or routes used by others to escape — or by merchants etc…They took their time at it but the text does not insist upon a straight and steady march…at any rate, Happy New Years !!! (Sunday)
BTW…No one is “afraid” of having their roots pulled out or ripped away. There is no evidence for Bh’s assertion…that is all.
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Common ancestors would result in a common father at some point.
Care to point out exactly what the questions are and explain why there is archaeological evidence for the Exodus?
I have seen no evidence anyone is feeling threatened.
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Summary (details below):
Ramesses (Vadnagar, Gujarat) to Sinai (Taftan) via Khyber Pass 2696 km, 3 months, 30 km/day.
Sinai (Taftan) to Paran (Isfahan) 1287 km, 26.2 km/day.
Paran Outskirts to Kadesh (Tehran). 940 Km. This was covered in an unspecified time during the 39 years of wilderness.
Spies: Kadesh (Tehran) to Israel (say, Jordan River) 1784 km in 40 days, 44.6 km/day.
Kadesh (Tehran) to Mount Hor (Kangavar, Kermansah), 498 km. This is covered in the 39 years in the wilderness.
Mount Hor (Kangavar, Kermansah) to Jericho via Shatt al-Arab, 747 km + 1509 km=2256 km in 6 months, 12.5 Km/day.
Details:
Ramesses to Sinai: 3 months (Ex 19.1): Ramesses (Vadnagar) to Khyber Pass 1155km, Khyber Pass to Marah (Kabul) 200 km, Marah (Kabul) to Sinai (Taftan) 1341 km: total: 2696 km in 90 days = 30 km/day. Time covered 3 months.
Sinai to Paran Num 11.20 ate meat for a whole month. Paran is a large area. An ancient city named Paran is located near Isfahan. However, the Hebrews may have reached the outskirts of Prana, Sinai (Taftan) to Paran (Isfahan) is 1287 km. Sinai to outskirts of Paran may be, say, 500 km less or 787 km, 30 days, 26.2 km/day. Time covered 4 months.
Paran Outskirts to Prana (Isfahan) 500 km to Kadesh (Tehran) 440 Km, Total 940 km. Here they came on the Kings Highway, the Silk Road, referred to in Num 21.22. This was covered in an unspecified time during the 39 years of wilderness. Time covered 39 years 4 months.
Num 13.25. Spies sent from Kadesh (Tehran) to Israel (say, Jordan River) 1784 km in 40 days, 44.6 km/day. Horses can travel 50 miles or 80 km/day. (See How Far Can a Horse Travel? Horse Running Endurance Explained).
Kadesh (Tehran) to Mount Hor (Kangavar, Kermansah), 498 km. This is covered in the 39 year’s travel in the wilderness. Num 33.38 says, “Aaron the priest ascended Mount Hor at the command of the Lord, and he died there in the fortieth year after the Israelites had come out of the land of Egypt on the first day of the fifth month.” However, we have already covered 39 years and 4 months. Thus, this travel would be within the 39 years of wilderness.
Mount Hor (Kangavar, Kermansah) to Jericho via Shatt al-Arab, 747 km + 1509 km=2256 km in 6 months (Deut 1:3: However, it was not until the first day of the eleventh month of the fortieth year that Moses addressed the Israelites just as the Lord had instructed him to do). 12.5 Km/day. Time covered 39 years 11 months.
First that is assuming horses bred for that endurance, something I’m not sure existed then. Second they must be provided with the necessary high quality food especially if you don’t want to spend hours letting them graze (crossing arid lands isn’t going to provide that unless you have additional horses carrying that high quality food). Third that pace is not necessarily kept up day after day. Your spies are going to be very obvious with each leading a string of horses. There is no way that rulers in various Mesopotamian cities are going to let them pass without asking questions. Spies might get across as traveling traders but those would be expected to (a) have goods and (b) stop to trade.
Also I note that the road from Susa to Sardis was not established until about 500 BCE, presumably this is the king’s highway you mentioned.
BTW is this idea of yours a push back against the theory that the Indo-European languages and the peoples speaking them migrated into India and merged with the pre-existing people there?
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You are right. But, in lighter vein, consider if you were traveling from New York to Washington in 1917: "First that is assuming cars are made for that endurance, something I’m not sure existed then. Second they must be provided with the necessary cooling points for Ford T on the way especially if you don’t want to spend hours waiting for it to cool down; Third, your car is going to be very obvious with each leading a string of cars. There is no way that Washington is going to let them pass without asking questions.
Presently, english is traveling from West to India; and natural persons are traveling from India to West.
Absolutely.
The Exodus in the Bible involved the descendants of a people-group who had left the region of ancient (Indus) several centuries before. Their ancestor had been called out of a polytheistic environment in still another region–not in the region of ancient Sumeria/BabylonThis man turned his back on the polytheism of his birthplace… (indeed yes).
There is nothing in the Bible to support origins in Canaan; or Sumeria.
Indus was worse. It had majestic burnt brick built cities. Then the ancient Yamuna River shifted course from west to east. Hundreds of cities died. That led to the Exodus.
I have ordered it. Thanks.
Basic problems are different. 1] No crossing of the sea. 2] Sinai in control of Egyptians. 3] Egyptians could circuit around the Red Sea/Bitter Lakes. 4] No archaeological evidence. 5] Catherines Monastry has been identified as a possible place only recenty. 6] NO second or third Yam Suf. List goes on and on.
Please see my post #93.
The problem is, the bible story that you are trying to reconcile here literally states Israelites came from a completely different region in the world to the story you are trying to align it with.
You are completely ignoring Jewish History…even worse, you are making the claim Jewish history is wrong.
Im sorry but that is an impossible position to support with any archaeological, oral, or written history of the Jewish nation.
It should be really simple to note that the logistically impossible distances involved in your storyline invalidate any chance of there being any truth in your theory. You have to simply accept that just like the flat earth conspiracy, you are flogging a dead horse! The variables that discredit your theory are so overwhelmingly compelling, one simply cannot align the two. IYour claim of “the egyptians could have rode around” makes absolutely zero difference to the authenticity of the story. The fact is, the story says they did not ride around…they rode straight through in the path of the Israelites. What they could have done, given sound judgement and hindsight, is invented an Apache helicopter and loaded it with bombs and bombed the s$%^ out of the Israelites and forced the remainder back to the other side!
Honestly, if it quacks like a duck, has a bill like a duck, webbed feet, swims on water, has feathers, and flies, then on the balance of probabilities, its going to be a duck. It is pointless to try to frame a dog as the animal in question!
I have no problem with different cultures having their own version of origins and God. However, to attempt to make the claim that the Israelites came from India and that Hindus worship the same deity? Thats simply not correct.
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As well as transubstantiation biology and geology we now have transubstantiation history based on the Exodus myth. This is how science and religion are reconciled for a third of Americans let alone at least two thirds of the rest of humanity.
It would have been nicer if u had responded to the points. But thx.
- Ha! the title of this thread should be: “A Delusion That Will Not Die” or “A Dead Horse That Returns For Another Beating”.
- A Conundrum:
- First Premise: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy contains the story of God’s revelation to Krishna and people whom he led out of the Indus Valley.
- Second Premise: In better hands, the Torah could be improved by substantial rewriting.
- Conclusion: Therefore, Jesus was not resurrected; most of humanity never learns how to give “group hugs”; and most of humanity has missed, is missing, and will continue to miss out on a lot of Bliss.
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Well, thanks for responding Bharatjj…and “let the truth out” indeed.
Point #1…It would seem to me that it would have helped earlier – in my conversation, for example, with riversea…if there had been a bit more specificity as to the nature of your assertions about the Exodus event occurring from the Indus River Valley region. When I suggested to him that there was some desire on someone’s part to make Hinduism the father of Judaism (and from there influencing two other monotheistic religions) — this was just a guess on my part.
From what I can see online, on October 4, 2018, you published “Common Prophets of Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindus: We move more towards One God One World”…I think the last word is “world” …I cannot read my handwriting…
Point #2…OK yes…when I asked Riversea “If Canaan was dilapidated, was the Indus worse?” and you said “Indus was worse.”… Well, you are right…from the perspective of what was going on in the Late Harappan Phase (1900-1300 BCE). From what I read on the site khanacademy.org/humanities...yes this whole Indus Valley area was a great civilization with many architectural accomplishments. It is likely a short-sighted conceit of our era to think that only WE have “made the trains run on time,” so to speak. But according to the khana site, decline in that area began approx 1800 BCE and was caused by climate change. “By around 1700 BCE, most of the Indus Valley Civilization had been abandoned.”
That is a sad fact of human history. Civilizations rise and fall— and often we do not know why.
In this case, we do know that “by around 1700 BCE” life was not quite what it had been in the Indus Valley region. What happened to those people? That is a question for historians of India.
Point #3…The name of Abraham was eventually given to a man named Abram — a common personal name for the first and second millenium BCE. According to the biblical text – and to commentators Westermann, Wenham, and Hamilton (three different publications) Abram moved from Ur to Haran or “the region of Haran”. Abram’s father (Terah) has a western Semitic, possibly Amorite, name. Nothing in these names is remotely in the direction of the Indus Valley which, it seems was no longer so desirable --depending, of course, on how you date this.
Abram (AB= ‘father’ and ‘rum’ means ‘be high, exalted’ in west Semitic contexts’, per Wenham). There is some disagreement among scholars as to whether the “Ur” in the biblical text was in northern or southern Mesopotamia…but Mesopotamia is the region that is referred to . Not the Indus Valley or Harappan. The Amorites lived in what is modern Syria—and when Abram was called by God from “the region of Haran” to the land God “will show him” he did not go in the direction that Amorites were typically going. The land he was shown “is Canaan,” – see Westermann on this.
Harran was located 20 miles southeast of Urfa (modern Edessa). Both Harran and Ur are associated with worship of the moon god. The name of Abraham’s father is reflected in the name of an Israeli camp in Numbers 33 and also a site near Harran per Westermann, Wenham…and Hamilton and Wenham disagree on whether Ur was upper or lower Mesopotamia. But they do agree it was Mesopotamia. To say that “there is nothing in the Bible to support origins in Canaan, or Sumeria” – is only partially true. Ur of the Chaldees would have been on the tail-end of Sumerian civilization (which was declining ) — that is, if Ur was in southern Mesopotamia. Canaan — a number of the place names cited in Genesis 12 are linked to Canaan. You will find some of that re-stated in Five Views of the Exodus, especially the comments by Stripling, who is one of the contributors.
Point #4…I am glad that you are going to read Five Views of the Exodus. I enjoy books that have various scholars going “back and forth” with their views on a subject. It gives the lay reader, like you and me, a chance to see the areas of agreement, disagreement…and the latest in scholarship plus the chance to sharpen our own thinking.
By the time of the biblical exodus event, the stability of several of the great civilizations of that era were experiencing perhaps what the Indus Valley had experienced four or five centuries before. Read Eric Cline on this. The Egyptians found the route through Canaan to be a handy one when heading to Cyprus or chasing Hittites — per modern ANE historians.
POINT #5…In Genesis 12:6,7…it mentions Abram/Abraham “traveled …as far as the site of the great tree of Moreh at Shechem. At that time the Canaanites were in the land. So he [Abram] built an altar there to the Lord, who had appeared to him.” Kaiser – in another book, said that “the promise of Messiah was tied indirectly to an earthly philosophy of history.”
pOINT #6… I understand that local people still gather at the tree that Abraham was believed to have been sleeping under at Mamre – mentioned in Genesis 18 as the place where Abraham took a snooze and awoke to see “three men” whom he then invited home for lunch and, after all the hospitalities had been observed, was told – along with his wife Sarah – that they would become parents, in their old age, “about this time next year”. A big deal — since the “son of the promise” became the founder of a new nation…AND through this nation, the Messiah — who would be both God and man — would come to take upon Himself the sins of the world.
Another Point…And as he led his visitors on their way, after the visit, they informed Abraham of Sodom’s impending doom… This is another early-historical event with consequences–and these locations have been identified, though that may be controversial. But they were not in the Indus Valley.
OK…this answered my questions about why you propose this sort of origin for the Exodus event, Bh. It is interesting to wonder why civilizations change. History is full of mysteries, and sometimes people spend decades or centuries debating them. The change in Indus Valley cultures probably is like that. But the 1900 to 1700 BCE collapse of a civilization in the Indus Valley of India does not fit entirely with anything related to Semitic people on another continent five or six centuries later. And I would imagine that historians of Indian civilization have many theories…
Back to Point #1…but yours seems to be borne out of a desire to answer not only the above historical question but also to kind of “make equal” all religions…which is a whole other matter.
Exactly who finds “Exodus from the Indus Valley” dangerous to their faith? The truth is, I find this idea ridiculous and I’m sure I’m not alone. But why don’t you edit the Wikipedia articles on Exodus to push your ideas? Kind of like they did for the “Satan’s throne in Geneva” idea.
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