The only time I’m talking about is days… and I don’t even mean 24 hours. The only way to measure the coming and going of a day was with the Sun.
The reference to “light” from the sky prior to the sun is further proof that the Genesis scribe really didn’t understand his world - - regardless of how much inspiration he had. They thought the sun coordinated itself with the light of the sky… or at least this particular scribe thought that.
Post deleted by author.
A spectra is light, an arrangement of colors. The bluest colors come from the fastest light vibrations. Throughout cosmic history, light keeps shifting its spectra towards the blue. Even local atomic clocks, when compared to their reflections from hours ago, also appear to blue shift at the ~ same “distance rate” as the atoms in billion of distant galaxies. This is not legal in science, because their measuring units and mathematical theories depend on the notion that matter is not changing itself with age. Thus, scientists fill the universe with stories about how the vacuum adjusts the frequencies of passing light.
Vast difference. They assumed that the days and years of the son are shorter and worse than the days and years of the fathers (Genesis 47:9). They told about how planets used to pass close to earth, stories the Bible also admits. Yet planet do not pass this way today. they saw changes, we go with the philosophy that time exists and is linear. Most of our measuring definitions are scaled from the notion that clocks measure time. Change and time are diametrically opposite worldviews.
Victor
They do?
They do? Blue shifting is attributed to receding velocity, not vacuum.
You’re argument is completely circular. Let me demonstrate:
“This is the way it is because this is how the Bible describes it (as I interpret it). How do I know that my interpretation is correct? Because this is the way it is.”
Circular.
No, they’re not.
Newsflash! Everyone who continues to talk to the Riddler about change and time is going to be added to
Foxe’s Book of Martyrs.
Do I get my own chapter?
You are only 500 more posts from getting your own chapter!
There is no underlying substance with which we can compare fundamental changes, only our God given senses. Ancient people, like us, notice that daylight is longer in summer than in winter. They could call noon the point when a shadow is the shortest, like we used to. That could not suggest to them that time exists and is linear. Such an idea depends on the notion that matter is not changing itself, something not invented until more than 1500 years after the close of the Old Testament. Ovid wrote of new oceans forming. The Bible mentions when the Earth was divided by a watery division. Indeed, we observe that the modern oceans did not come into existence until quite late in earth history.
The earth histories of Noah’s descendants, focused on how much greater were the lifetimes of the patriarchs. Indeed, Jacob crossed the Euphrates and fled from his uncle Laban. He traveled hundreds of miles to the mountains of Gilead, called a seven day journey. Today it would take months to drive newborn lambs that distance. Other ancients, such as Xenophon, Alexander and several biblical narratives tell of people traveling further than we can in a day. They counted days just like we can. But they could not measure them as of fixed duration, which contradicted their worldview. Old man Jacob seemed to think, like the ancients, that today is shorter than yesterday (Genesis 47:9).
How could this be? We can see to the creation era, with telescopes. The earliest atoms visibly tick at much less than 10% of the frequencies of modern atoms. Billions of star streams emerged and spread out from the unformed matter God created first. We even see bursts of gamma light arriving from the creation era. Perhaps this was God energizing matter with light. Indeed, the bursts show up where star globs and later dust jets appear.
What could cause local days and years to speed up? We can see how the star streams in so many galaxies keep speeding up, not lapping but accelerating outward. Billions of galaxies obey God’s command to become spreading things, raqiya.
We also detect that the pull of the Sun and Moon on the Earth has an aberration, just like light. Thus, the pull of the Sun today must be offset 20 seconds ahead along our orbit. This must accelerate days and years together (rotations and orbits) as we are gradually propelled out into logarithmically spaced orbits. Wait, we would freeze. No! The ancients painted the Sun red. Homer said the sky was bronze, Indeed, no one seemed to notice a blue sky until about 2,000 years ago. This is what we see in cosmic history. The orbits accelerate out as the stars change from red to blue white. Time and change are opposite ways of understanding nature.
Victor
No, they’re not.
Not so. The Bible gives us the evidence for the Creator. In this generation, we confirm his existence with optics and giant telescopes. He repeatedly says he continues to spread out the plural heavens. He continues to call the hosts of stars to come out, yet none go missing. He continues to spread out the plural heavens like a tent to dwell in. He commanded the luminaries to continue to become spreading things (raqiya). He even ties the evidence for himself to a spreading out earth. Today, a child can see how the continents have similar outlines. However, they only fit together on a minuscule planet. New oceans continue to spread out between the rooted continents as drill cores show.
We see how probably several trillion galaxies spread out from the formless matter God created first. In countless examples, streams of stars came out and spread out, often growing into local growth spirals whose star streams do not lap, but accelerate out.
By the way, to go back to the pagan imagery theme. Ovid wrote that the stars move out, expanding as they take up their places. This is similar to the biblical claims that God continues to call out the hosts of stars, yet none go missing. How could the pagans know what this, yet they did not have the telescopes we have? They acknowledged change as real. We imagine time as real. Change and time are opposite worldviews.
Victor
But dividing the dial into 12 arbitrary and uniform divisions does show they thought of time as linear even if they had no word for the concept.
Data and sources please.
I read of an early missionary to Indonesia. What time is church, he asks? When people get here. What time do they get here. Seems some used the temperature, when the day gets hot. Some used the sun’s shadow. Each person used nature to determine when to get to church. When they got there, the meeting started. Of course, the Western missionary found this confusing, but it did not confuse the natives. They had no concept of time. They acted individually by monitoring some change in nature.
Eventually, the ancients wanted to divide daylight into some standard, say the steps on Ahaz’s sundial. However, the shadow of the sun did not suggest to them a linear time.
The shadow changes length and speed, as we can see
The second. Continuous changes affected our rotation and orbit. Thus all ancient people looked back on the first generation as those how lived, long slow lives, If we lived for geological ages, in few days, we would grow Neanderthal brows before we died, like Job described (Job 14).
Catastrophic planet encounters, similar to one we read in Judges and Joshua, suddenly produced catastrophic change. Perhaps our axis precessed, from a close passage as the Greeks described. Indeed, the shadow on Ahaz’s sundial backup up.
Victor
This is visible You can go to the Hubble Deep field and examine the spectra. We can see how the atomic spectra is shifted all the way into lower frequencies. Simple calculations can show the percentage of the frequencies of ancient light versus those from modern atoms.
However, this is not allowed. Why not? Western science began with the notion that matter is not changing continually. So they call it redshift, something never detected in any experiment. They claim that the early atoms clocked the same frequencies as modern atoms. This produces the notion that space altered the passing light. Yet no one has ever seen any light changing frequency, ever.
You see, what I am arguing with is the fundamental assumption of Western science, that matter is NOT changing itself relationally. I base my arguments on biblical passages, such as 2 Peter 3:3-6 and visible evidence.
Victor
It appears this post has strayed far from its roots. If there are no further meaningful comments regarding the title subject, we can wrap it up and move on. Will give any participants an opportunity to comment before we close it so long as those comments are on topic.
No, it’s not.
[Just messin’ 
]
Change and time are not opposite worldviews. Amen.
Each person used nature to determine what time it was.
So no data and no sources. We just have to take your word for it. Thought so.
Your arguments are based on your particular interpretation of 2 Peter 3:3-6 which we have already discussed at length and apparently your own personal take on visible evidence.
Alright folks nothing to see here. Move along.
Misrepresentation and circular reasoning. I can see why the mod wants to shut the conversation down. So this is my last word on the matter (and space…and time).
Correction:
No they’re not. That was my last word on the matter (and space…and time).
Since a new thread was created to get back on track, will close this one for clarity at this time
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