Exalting Yahweh using Pagan imagery



Sam Warren Carey’s book is out of print, but you can still find it on Amazon. Pricey, about $40 for a used hardcover. He was an Australian geologist (died a few years ago). He details the evidence for a growing Earth but cannot give a reason. He evidently was unaware of the biblical statement that God continues to lay the foundation of the Earth (Zechariah 12:1). Three other passages state that he continues to spread out the earth.

In Friar Thomas’ system, the essence of substance is changeless. Essence comes from the noun of the Latin verb to be, esse. Thus, matter’s intrinsic properties allegedly do not change. This assumption is critical for theories that clocks measure time.

Lets examine a cesium clock, which by international agreements, measures time operationally. (Time is the primary measuring unit from which most other physics measurements are scaled. An operational definition can define something undetected, with a specific operation).

Cesium clocks are really two clocks tied together with a feedback network. When you first turn it on, the input clock sweeps through a band of microwaves, radiating heated cesium 133. At some point in the frequency sweep, the cesium absorbs the microwaves and later relaxes and re-emits a narrow frequency. The output clock counts 9,192,631,770 pulses, which by definition is a second. It also, through the feedback circuit, tunes the input radiator for maximum cesium radiation. It may take hours for the two clocks to synchronize. (By the way, in 1655, Christiaan Huygens notice that two of his pendulum clocks beat in unison, swing for swing. Huygens clocks normally drifted. The clocks were synchronizing each other with mechanical vibrations, a feedback system. If all atomic clocks feed back on themselves, which they do, how do we know they are not all tracking changing atoms?

If atoms are changing themselves, all local atomic clocks would seem to track, within reason. However, distant atoms would not clock the same light frequencies as modern atoms.

John Anderson, from Jet Propulsion, Doppler navigated four spinning spaceships equipped with transponders. NASA transmitted a frequency, derived from hydrogen maser clocks, to the four spinning birds. (Spin stabilized spacecraft do not use internal flywheels, thus they are not accelerating themselves). The spacecraft send back the received signal, multiplied by a scaling factor. (This allows the dish antenna to send and receive simultaneously.) Back on Earth, the returned signal is beat against a frequency, scaled from the hydrogen maser clocks. The differences are recorded as Doppler. After subtracting all known relative movements of the Earth and spacecraft, Anderson notice a difference that increased with distance. One possibility was that NASA’s hydrogen maser atomic clocks did not match their frequency from hours ago. Anderson estimated this as a clock accelerating of 2.92 x10^-18 seconds per second. (If clocks are accelerating, the notion of a second is meaningless). Amazingly, this value is nearly the same as the Hubble ratio x C. Astronomers use this ratio to measure the light distance to galaxies.

To do so, they (a.) must assume that an ancient atom clocks the same frequency as a modern atom and (b.) that space is altering the frequencies of passing light. Thus, the frequency differences are a way to measure how much the vacuum has altered the passing light.

How much simpler to reject Friar Thomas’ metaphysics. After all the Bible says we cannot measure the heavens (Jeremiah 31:37) or the foundations of the Earth. There is no time. All there is are changes. The orbits and the light atoms both shift together as billions of galaxies spread out from cores of formless matter God created first. Only the Hebrew Creation text has support in the visible history of the galaxies.



I commend your frank admission!
I find that I cannot be so honest. You’d be surprised at how a “chill” can be suddenly spread over
an entire social gathering by a simple admission like this:

“Hey, I’m not wearing socks… and I have matching underwear!”

I think high-tech invisible apparel is pretty impressive… but I guess this is not a universal reaction.

Aren’t you just redefining “time” as “change” and then rejecting the word? Or the concept behind the word?

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Just a quick reply to this. For those that are interested in gobs of math.

This is the paper by Anderson, Dated Mar 10, 2005

Study of the anomalous acceleration of Pioneer 10 and 11

Until more is known, we must admit that the most likely cause of this effect is an unknown systematic. (We ourselves are divided as to whether “gas leaks” or “heat” is this “most likely cause.”)

But based on further work as documented in this paper it appears the answer is heat. Dated June 12, 2012

Support for the Thermal Origin of the Pioneer Anomaly

We therefore conclude that at the present level of our knowledge of the Pioneer 10 spacecraft and its trajectory, no statistically significant acceleration anomaly exists.

Always helps to go with the latest information.

You seem to be saying that the frequency of emitted radiation from an atom changes with it’s distance from us. Is that correct? Or is it the frequency of emitted radiation has changed over time?

What is the real history of this fragile earth, our island home?

From HHMI BioInteractive, here’s Earth viewer, a dynamic teaching tool which lets you know what earth was like at different periods in its tumultuous history (in cases where data are available).

It’s an “interactive tool for exploring the science of Earth’s deep history. From molten mass to snowball earth, EarthViewer lets you see continents grow and shift as you scroll through billions of years. Additional layers let you and your students explore changes in atmospheric composition, temperature, biodiversity, day length, and solar luminosity over deep time.”

There is an introductory video, teacher guides, and lots of other good stuff.

And HHMI BioInteractive also has a Biome Viewer to explore biomes, climate, biodiversity, and human impacts across the globe.

What about the moon? Scientists think that when the earth was very young and very hot, a Mars-sized object collided with the Earth, spewing molten rock into orbit around earth, which eventually formed the moon, as this short video explains.

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Many attempted to explain away the Pioneer Anomaly. All of them assume the assumption the Bible predicted for the last days, that all things remain the same. Yet we can see is visible cosmic history nothing but changes. The notion that it was thermal accelerations also depends on Friar Thomas’ assumption. However, the Pioneer Anomaly, also affected the Galileo and Ulysses birds, which did not have the same arrangements in their Plutonium RTGs.

Yet billions of galaxies change their clock frequencies, (relative to distance), in the same way as what we observe in the Pioneer Anomaly.

How can we see cosmic history? We can arrange galaxies according to their changing colors (spectra), changing morphology, dimness and angular sizes. Roughly, this allows us look at cosmic history like individual frames in a movie film.

Amazingly, what we see only fits the Creation text. Elohim continues (imperfect verbs) to speak to the sky luminaries, for them to continue to become spreading things (noun raqiya). What if he had used the verb raqa, for them to spread out? That would only partially fit the visible history of the galaxies. Galaxies do spread out from their cores, streams of stars spreading into local growth spirals. However, he goes beyond just telling them to spread out. He tells them to become spreading things. This is what we SEE. Billions of galaxies change completely. Every atom keeps changing its clock frequencies. Galaxies also grew in volume as streams of stars spread out. These spreading lights are to shine on the Earth and serve as markers for days and years. Notice he does not mention time or 24 hour days. Neither had been invented when Moses wrote. What we see is change, even within the solar system the Sun and Moon keep spreading out as the Earth also grows in volume. The parallax to solar system objects has continued to decrease for over 2000 years.

We should understand the universe as a place where everything is changing (Romans 8:19-22) instead of with Friar Thomas’ metaphysics. The clocks the orbits and matters volume all shift together throughout cosmic history as billions of galaxies become spreading things, noun raqiya.


It would be nice if they had a utility like that which showed change instead of time…


Maybe in the next release? :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

But all of the calculations that went into detecting the Pioneer Anomaly used the very assumption you say is incorrect. So in one case the incorrect assumptions give you the result you want but in the other it doesn’t. You can’t eat your cake and have it too.

It is important to make a clean break with the false idea the Bible predicted for the last days, the notion that all things remain the same. Thus, the calculation that clocks may all be accelerating (local and cosmic) is not a proof. It is merely an Okham’s razor, an reductio ad absurdum. To believe in a magical universe, to preserve the notion that clocks measure time is ridiculous. In the visible history of the cosmos, the atomic clocks and the orbits accelerate together as galaxies grew out of the unformed matter God created first.

Earth history evidence does not depend on measuring invisible things like time. Ephesian 5:13 tells us the light reveals the truth and exposes error. Why? Everything that is visible is light, phos estin. Notice Paul does not see that light merely exposes things. Every substance contains light. Matter itself is a relation with light (see day one). Light is the standard of truth, not empirical, mathematical science. Everything physical is constructed with light (phos estin).

Telescopes reveal the truth about creation, not mathematical calculations. Billions of galaxies spread out, grew out, shine bluer as billions of galaxies become spreading things (raqiya) exactly as we read in the creation text. It is science that fails, not God’s word.


I believe we should use the ancient worldview to understand the Bible. I do not have to convert time into change or even imagine any time.

When I was a child, my teachers taught me the Latin version of creation. The Latin uses perfect verbs instead of the Hebrew imperfects and participles. 2/3rd of the creation verbs are imperfects and participles. These show continuing actions, not like our verbs. The Latin tries to understand creation with the medieval concept of time. Moses could not imagine time, since his language had no verb tenses or words for time. All ancient languages were aspectual. They monitored nature’s changes. They used these to explain when and to understand earth history. (Read Hesiod’s Works and Days).

We live in a society where everything focuses on time. This is unlike any ancient society. Have a nice day.



@Christy and I thoroughly lectured you last time about the intellectual bankruptcy of the strong Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. I don’t have time to pull up those posts, but it shouldn’t be too hard — it was at the very beginning of your BioLogos Forum engagement. That you continue to trumpet these easily-debunked misunderstandings of tense, aspect and mode marking in the verbal systems of the world’s languages shows that you’re not really open (or, at least, historically have not been open) to interacting with mainstream scholarship to make your theories better model reality.

I don’t mean to discourage you, but rather to encourage you to engage with some quality scholarship and make your theories better. Please let us know when you’ve done so and we can have some more interesting discussions!



I would like to remind you of our guideline that states:

If you continue to repeat, ad nauseum that change and time are opposite worldviews, that’s a violation of the guidelines. Either contribute meaningfully to the discussion at hand - pagan imagery in the OT-or find a different place to hang out. We have humored your off the wall ideas for long enough here.


Okay, we still have imperfects and participles in English. Is it possible to give an example of how the text should be translated in English imperfects and participles to demonstrate that contrast?

Let’s examine day four to day seven.

On day four, Elohim continues (imperfect) to speak to the sky luminaries. He tells them to become spreading things (noun raqiya). The spreading luminaries, Sun, Moon and stars are to shine on the Earth. They are to serve as markers for days and years.

This has powerful support in the visible history of the universe. Early galaxies are often surrounded by equally globs, each packed with stars. These spread out, often following each other out in lanes as billions of galaxies become spreading things (raqiya). Often they spread out into local growth spirals, like the Milky Way. Concurrently, galactic spectral colors keep shifting towards the blue.

Then on day seven, he completes (imperfect verb) the making of the plural heavens. How can you complete something with imperfect verbs? Imperfect verbs show continuing actions. He continues to finish, yet the intensity of making the plural heavens ends.

We confirm these imperfect intense and causal verbs. At some point in cosmic history, star globs stop emerging and spreading out from galactic cores. Yet he continues to spread out each galaxy. He continues to finish. Thus only local galaxies shoot out dust jets into dust bars. Ancient galaxies shot out star globs. Yet all galaxies continue to spread out. Over and over again, especially in Isaiah, God says he continues to call out the hosts of stars, yet none go missing. He continues to spread out the plural heavens, which we confirm with telescopes. Thus we actually have a visible marker for the duration of day four to day six.

None of what is visible makes sense when we use verb tenses. However, it has visible support if we interpret this in the ancient changing worldview.


Imperfective aspect does not equal “eternally progressive.” Your understanding of tense/aspect systems is woefully lacking, as has been pointed out numerous times. When telic verbs are expressed as imperfectives it doesn’t entail the action was never completed, just that the endpoint is not in focus. Your theories are based on errors that are super basic.

“I was making bread yesterday when my mom called.”

That does not mean I am continuing to making bread and will be continuing to make bread for all eternity. My use of an imperfective aspect here does not mean it is impossible to imagine that I finished making the bread.


sigh the entire thread has been completely derailed


Perhaps the Riddler should be confined to his own thread If he is not willing to discuss the issues.

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He has a fitting name. The meaning of his ramblings is a riddle which only God can work out.

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“Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.” -Colossians 4:6

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