Evolution is not a scientific theory but ID is?

[beaglelady]

@Ani99

The body is only a temporary garment, which we leave behind when we “pass away” or “return home” I would say.

What you are describing is Gnosticism.

[Ani99]

@MOls

These two statements are not correct

• Transcription factors do not go into the ER/Golgi. Those organelles are for processing secreted or membrane bound proteins
• Not sure what you are referring to with the word “these”. Transcription factors are not secreted proteins, but there are lots of different signaling molecules that are secreted that send different types of signals to different tissues throughout the body

Thank you for your corrections.
Where are transcription factor proteins folded?
Yes, I didn’t word it well at all. I was thinking of growth factors docking on receptors and triggering transcription factors inside the cell.

[T_aquaticus]

@Ani99

Regulatory genes give rise to regulatory proteins or transcription factors. For a protein to arise there needs to be

1. transcription of the gene,
2. post transcriptional modifications, i.e., a cut & paste job is done to form final form of the mRNA.
3. the mRNA formed has to be taken out of the nucleus and into the cytoplasm and into a ribosome. There it is translated from a string of nucleotides to a string of amino acids.
4. There are post translational modifications, even more involved than the post transcriptional modifications.
5. It is then taken to the Golgi apparatus and folded, given a zip code and switched on there or at its final location were it is to do a job.
6. These are produced by stromal cells that support an organ or tissue so they need to be exported and imported by the relevant cells.
7. They need to be taken to the nucleus of those cells where cell division is taking place for a limb to develop
8. They roll along the DNA much like a bolt rolls over a screw thread until they find the right location and there they produce some effect that influences how the relevant gene is copied and for how long etc.,etc.
9. This is why one protein coding gene can give rise to several different proteins.

All of these features preceded HOX genes. They can be found in simpler eukaryotes.

[Ani99]

@beaglelady

Gnosticism.

Yes, it probably is. It is from my own experience from NDE and past lives.

[Ani99]

@T_aquaticus

All of these features preceded HOX genes. They can be found in simpler eukaryotes.

Yes but that doesn’t change the fact that most regulatory proteins or transcription factor are mostly proteins so the same applies. Some TFs are non -coding RNA .

The point is that there is far too much sophistication and complexity in how all this works for it to have evolved. You can’t get a random mutation in a gene “naturally selected”. The mutation in a gene has to give rise to something useful and that means it has to give rise to some useful functioning part whether a protein or something else.

[T_aquaticus]

@Ani99

Yes but that doesn’t change the fact that most regulatory proteins or transcription factor are mostly proteins so the same applies.

All of the processes you describe existed before HOX genes. There were already RNA editing proteins to stitch exons together. There were already other proteins that transferred other proteins out of the nucleus. There were already phosphatases and other enzymes that could modify other proteins. There were already Golgi apparatus. There were already methods of exporting proteins. All of that already existed.

[beaglelady]

@Ani99

Yes, it probably is. It is from my own experience from NDE and past lives.

Gnosticism isn’t about past lives. What past lives have you experienced?

[MOls (Michelle Ols)]

@Ani99

Thank you for your corrections.
Where are transcription factor proteins folded?

Transcription factors would be translated from mRNA into protein via ribosomes in cytoplasm of the cell. Signals from upstream pathways induce post transcriptional or conformational or binding partner changes to already folded transcription factors that then cause transcription factors to enter the nucleus and affect gene transcription into mRNA

[Ani99]

@beaglelady

Gnosticism isn’t about past lives. What past lives have you experienced?

I have had 12 other lives on Earth but I only recall fragments of each one. There were three in which I died a violent death. The first was in Egypt when an earthquake caused a temple to fall. I had 6 past lives in Egypt and I think all of them were as a priest or priestess. Anyway I tried to run out of the temple and I thought I had. But when I looked back I saw my arm and my leg and part of my body sticking out from under a huge rock. Then I realized I had passed. It was very sudden.
Another life was in Turkey. I was a woman with a baby in my arms and my husband with our little child was next to me. We were all killed by men on horses with long white robes. This was painful but only for a very short time almost instant. So we ended up floating away looking at our bodies on the ground.
The last time was in my previous birth in India. I was riding on the roof of a train together with others. The train got derailed and feel down the ravine. We, who were sitting on the roof of the train fell and the train fell on top of us. But this was so quick that while I knew I was a gonna I didn’t really feel anything. I just remember being high above the ravine looking down.
The NDE was probably more dramatic because I was in a dark place but there was a huge horizon before me full of light. Some of my spiritual allies were there. I moved towards them. Then there was a voice, maybe one of them spoke to me and said “you have reached the point of no return. It is okay you can cross over and come back to us”. It was like there was an invisible line on the ground. I thought for a moment and said “but I have come here to do something, to do some job” and then I started to drift back. The next thing I knew was like getting into heavily wet clothes. I was soon conscious and was having difficulty breathing, but the feeling that I was back and I would do the job I came to do made me feel better and the breathing became calm again. So this was definitely my most dramatic experience.
I have also had several OBEs (out of body experiences). They are different from the NDE. In an OBE one is still connected to the body but it is like there is a conscious part that can leave and go elsewhere.

[beaglelady]

There’s another guy on this forum who is into this kind of stuff.

[Ani99]

@beaglelady

There’s another guy on this forum who is into this kind of stuff.

Who? Do you have a name? Thanks

[beaglelady]

@Ani99

Who? Do you have a name? Thanks

There are actually 2 other people:

Shawn t murphy
and
@Realspiritik

[Klax (The only thing that matters is faith expressed in love.)]

@EricMH

@mitchellmckain

ID is also a very poor religion

id is orthogonal to religion

How? ID is religious. Not good religion, but little is. Apart from true religion.

[Ani99]

@T_aquaticus

All of that already existed.

Yes, the means of making proteins existed before Hox genes but the Hox genes code for proteins which means you can’t just get a random mutation and then another and another and it ends up something useful for natural selection. This is really true of all genes that code for some protein. So how do you get a viable regulatory protein from random mutations? You can’t. This is evidence for intelligent design/ creationism.

[T_aquaticus]

@Ani99

Yes, the means of making proteins existed before Hox genes but the Hox genes code for proteins which means you can’t just get a random mutation and then another and another and it ends up something useful for natural selection.

Why not?

@Ani99

So how do you get a viable regulatory protein from random mutations? You can’t. This is evidence for intelligent design/ creationism.

Lack of evidence for evolution is not evidence for ID/creationism.

[marvin (Christian Sceptic)]

@Chris_Falter

Sub-optimal engineering designs. Moreover, biologists expect evolution-driven development process to sometimes result in structures which are sub-optimal from the engineering perspective as long as they result in a net advantage to a population. This is observed in the laryngeal nerve of the giraffe, which extends meters beyond the shortest path (and incurs a cost in reduced vocalization ability). Source

From an engineering point the laryngal nerve is to me a fine example of intelligent design as it allows for a variety of phenotypic models using the same basic design structure.
If you really want to express doubts about the intelligence of the design of life forms I would go with the popular ones such as the separation of the breathing hole from the feeding hole, so eloquently demanded by Neil deGrasse-Tyson https://youtu.be/YCnGf37iiKU?t=238 who probably still stuffs his food up his nose and wants to run around with a snotty nose secreting the mucus required to wash out his lungs constantly risking dehydration and drinking water all the time to replenish the liquid lost that way.

The failure of the human eye is a classic being wired up the wrong way round with the wiring in front of the sensors. That it allows for better maintenance of the detectors and attenuates for the intensive illumination is not really important if the squid got the better design in the eyes of the “brights” in the evolution department who really would like eyes like squids. Now as the squids eye goes with the squids brain - let them have the squids eyes as well I wonder if they really want to be Lobsters

Perhaps the most entertaining suboptimal design is highlighted in the end of NDGT’s video https://youtu.be/YCnGf37iiKU?t=275 to the delight of the chief Bright in the audience, where he complains about the location of the entertainment complex in the middle of the sewage system. To the intellectually educated person it is clear that he has a problem in separating his reproductive organs from his “entertainment centre” The latter is found between the ears, and if found in the sewage system one would suggest to pull ones head out of that place, but its probably too late for some.

Now if you find evolution to be not intelligently designed you should consider the stupidity of the human brain as a major obstacle to our understanding of reality and we should question ourselves as to how we could judge the quality of the outcome of the evolutionary process and suggest to abandon science altogether

and then I saw that there was far more to this thread as the crash of my webconnection suggested.

What a jump to intelligently designed cancer. Cancer is not a disease based in faster growth, but based on failure to die. And, as we can see so adequately demonstrated on the human body, we can see the same in human kind itself. The failure to submit to mortality of the single cell leads to the collapse of the system it is embedded in. Thus we should see where the human desire of not wanting to die will lead us to. We (better some of us) tend to think that our death is the hallmark of a design flaw as the body should be “flawless” which as mentioned above hints at the flaw of our brain structure :-). Surely a God that creates a human body that can die does not understand the concept of intelligent design, thus proving that we were not intelligently designed :-).

[Ani99]

The old saying “garbage in garbage out”.
Can an ape, seated at a grand piano, play for you, by random keystrokes, say Beethoven’s Ninth Symphony?

No, this is not lack of evidence for evolution. This is information ordered and such orders preserved across species. Experiments have shown that a random mutation results in bizarre results such as legs growing out of a fly’s head etc. We see order. This can’t arise out of junk. You have to have something useful, a protein that does something, for there to be natural selection if that was the case. To get a useful protein out of random mutations would be impossible. Even for just one proteins to arise by chance mutations it would take longer than the age of the Universe, let alone the earth.

[T_aquaticus]

@Ani99

Can an ape, seated at a grand piano, play for you, by random keystrokes, say Beethoven’s Ninth Symphony?

What does that have to do with anything?

@Ani99

Experiments have shown that a random mutation results in bizarre results such as legs growing out of a fly’s head etc. We see order. This can’t arise out of junk.

The random mutations that separate humans and chimps prove otherwise.

@Ani99

To get a useful protein out of random mutations would be impossible.

Functional primordial proteins presumably originated from random sequences, but it is not known how frequently functional, or even folded, proteins occur in collections of random sequences. Here we have used in vitro selection of messenger RNA displayed proteins, in which each protein is covalently linked through its carboxy terminus to the 3′ end of its encoding mRNA1, to sample a large number of distinct random sequences. Starting from a library of 6 × 1012 proteins each containing 80 contiguous random amino acids, we selected functional proteins by enriching for those that bind to ATP. This selection yielded four new ATP-binding proteins that appear to be unrelated to each other or to anything found in the current databases of biological proteins. The frequency of occurrence of functional proteins in random-sequence libraries appears to be similar to that observed for equivalent RNA libraries2,3.
Functional proteins from a random-sequence library - PMC

Experiments say otherwise.