If God’s anger doesn’t harm anything, then what difference does it make?
I suppose there’s withdrawal of protection, but that’s only an issue if there’s something to protect from.
Two other examples then - the killing of the firstborn in Egypt and the flood.
Not done by people, not caused by people’s reactions, not something that would have happened anyway but for God’s protection.
There is still violence and destruction today.
How do you tell the difference between violence and destruction that results from God withdrawing his restraint vs the violence and destruction that seems to be happening when he hasn’t?
Or, if the violence and destruction we see today is a result of God withdrawing his restraint, it gets withdrawn an awful lot - so much so that maybe it isn’t there at all.
The Flood is easily explained as a matter of timing; an event big enough to take out Noah’s known world is possible even today – just so unlikely that we don’t have to worry about it.
The killing of the firstborn goes with Uzziah as a possible exception. Interestingly both involve death directly from divine action.
With difficulty – but with withdrawal of His restraint, it would be far worse. Don’t forget that the ‘principalities and powers’ are capable of interacting in the physical world if allowed to do so; as we see from Job, though, they have to have permission. And I do not doubt at all that if God’s restraint was loosened that they would have a much easier time asserting spiritual and emotional dominance – which would result in people like Hitler and Idi Amin popping up all over the place.
No, what we see today is the result of God saying, “This far, but no farther!” Things could be a lot worse than they are.
Gold plating rubbing against gold plating would likely cause it to rub off over time. That or it doesn’t specifically say that inside and outside includes around the edge of the lid. It quite likely could have been notched to help keep the lid from potentially sliding off… especially with the two Cherubs up top adding weight that could help throw the lid. The notch in the wood could have been left unplaited so that the gold on the inside only came in contact with the inside of the lid, and the outside with the outside. With the carrying rods attached at the feet, the whole thing would be top heavy, needing to be moved carefully.
For 40 years in the desert.
That’s just an assumption that the Philistines didn’t handle it properly.
In any case, I was just helping provide a plausible natural explanation for this passage, where the other passages also had one.
The only charge being suggested is static which isn’t going to remain for 40 years. It will bleed off over time.
Biggest problem is there has to be an electrical connection of the inside layer to the outside without getting too close to the outer layer. The voltage potential is between the two layers. Just touching the outer layer wouldn’t expose you to that voltage. You would have to touch both layers. Remember a Leyden jar has a metal rod connected to the inner layer.
Well I don’t believe in a God of the gaps. If we say that some event (like Uzziah being killed) could only be a supernatural event when there is a potential natural explanation for it, when that is found it makes God look smaller. I still think that the Ark of the Covenant was like a capacitor. It is God’s design… Something generating electricity well before the technology was there. Just like how Noah’s Ark is large sea vessel well before its time.
I believe God designed the Ark so that it would shock someone if they touched it. I don’t think we have the full details of its design written in Scripture though. He instructed them not to touch it, lest they die. Uzziah, while he had good intentions in trying to steady it, still disobeyed.
Strikes me as people are not only trying to justify events and therefore judge or justify God but also trying to justify their own view of God.
God is not of our construct. If God did those things then He obviously considered them to be valid. I see no value in God booby-trapping the Ark and as a lesson it seems rather harsh, when Uzziah’s intentions are clearly selfless. You would seem to be trying to defend the result as being beyond God’s control? Is that even possible?
Why must we justify God’s clear deliberate action? What does it accomplish?
Perhaps you find such a thing makes as this event makes you doubt His worthiness for your worship?
I see no other reason to try and give God an excuse or justification.
God is God. That must be enough. Like it or lump it.
No, rejecting a natural explanation leads down the same road as YEC.
God is just and everything He does is justified. If He doesn’t do what is right, regardless of how it may look to us, then how could we trust in Him? God is in control of every situation and it is no different with Uzziah’s case. God didn’t provide an exception, and the lesson here is that we don’t come into His presence by being selfless, but by trusting and believing in Him to get us through whatever situation we face. The Ark (our situation) may look like its going to topple over, but if we trust in Him it will right itself.
I don’t think we need to stretch for a natural explanation, and the idea of it acting as a capacitor is pretty much a stretch. Perhaps it was just fear that precipitated a cardiac arrest. It is interesting that while bad things happened to the Philistines when they captured the Ark, none are listed as falling down dead from touching it or looking upon it. Of course, those rules were for the children of Israel, not the Philistines.
That might be. Hmm… could be a combination of a non-lethal shock and fear causing cardiac arrest. Nowhere I can see though that they were instructed not to look upon it. The Philistines would likely have at least looked at the outside of it. After the Ark was returned, it was taken to Beth Shemesh where Levites then “looked inside” of it – This would require touching it to open the lid to look at the contents inside, possibly to see if the Philistines had stolen any of the items.
1 Sam 6:19 But God struck down some of the people of Beth-shemesh because they looked inside the ark of the LORD. He struck down seventy men, and the people mourned because the LORD had struck them with a great slaughter.
This great slaughter could be a subsequent battle that took place and was associated with them touching and looking into the Ark. Beth-shemesh was a border town involved in a lot of conflicts.
By human justice Uzziah was killed wrongly. Any attempt by a human to justify it is false, It just does not work.
And people do the same with much of the Old Testament. Scripture assigns blame (cause) to God and, rather than doubt the accuracy of Scripture, those actions are “justified” or are even dismissed as God teaching or purifying or anything except
Killing or causing suffering for selfish or vane reasons because people rejected Him. Because, that is how much of it is portrayed God is behaving in a human manner, because that is te only manner humans understand .Half the time the human participants have no idea what God is doing or even what He wants. They do not understand why everything is not a garden of roses. They escape slavery only to be uncomfortable and unhappy wandering around in the wilderness. They have no idea what is going on other than they are hungry and their feet hurt.
We have no right to justify god’s actions. We have no right to judge them right or wrong. We have no right to decree that God cannot use supernatural or unscientific powers or actions. Ours is not to reason at all.
Is blind misunderstanding faith, trying to justify itself against all odds (human reasoning)
But Uzziah wasn’t killed. He died, likely by a combination of static shock, fear and cardiac arrest. If the cause of death was determined by a forensic pathologist, it would not be that he was killed or murdered by God.
That’s kind of the thing though… It is the people in Scripture that assign blame to God for bad things happening. It does not make Scripture inaccurate for reporting where the blame was applied. We need to differentiate what people in Scripture say from what God actually says. But God doesn’t reject the blame being put on Him and this is consistent with what Jesus does for us in taking all our sin upon Himself, whether we blame ourselves or blame God, He took it all and died on the cross for us.
Wood as an insulator in a dielectric scenario?..im doubtful of that working, let alone working well enough to kill someome. Why wouldnt the charge have killed those who placed the Ark on the cart in the first place and others throughout the centuries before? The Ark had been handled many dozens ir not hundreds of of times prior to this event.
Yes we do…thats what the Bible is for, thats why it (GODS WORD) was given to us. The biblical theme is very consistent there…follow Gods word and there is no problem, DISOBEY Gods word and trouble awaits.
Yes it is a good insulator, especially if it is very dry. Lightning might strike trees, but they have moisture in them. Here is a article by an electrical engineer supporting the theory that the Ark was a capacitor including how it was charged:
Charging up the Ark: Smoke and Fire
Given there was no electrical grid at the time, the surest way to charge a capacitor is with lightning – nature has used lighting for 3.5 billion years or so and may be the initial spark that created life on Earth.
The wandering Israelites didn’t have to wait for lightning storms to charge up the ark, because a pillar of smoke and fire accompanied the mishkan throughout its journey. Through the pillar of fire, lighting could descend and charge the large capacitor which was the ark of the covenant. The concurrence of lighting inside a column of smoke is well established, and is called pyrocumulonombi – fire clouds.
Numbers 9:15 “And on the day that they erected the Mishkan, the Cloud of Glory covered the Mishkan, and the Tent of the Testimony, and in the evening the Cloud remained over the Mishkan as a pillar of fire, until the morning.”
Just went back and read the directions on making the ark. It was carried on poles which were covered in gold. If touching the outside of the capacitor could kill you then so should carrying it on the poles made for that purpose.
I am sorry, but calling the Ark a giant capacitor as a deliberate booby-trap is taking science too far into Scripture. I am not even sure what it says about God, either.
Might not be enough to kill you by itself as I acknowledged earlier:
Yes, it was carried on poles, but the rings that the poles were inserted into were attached at the feet.
Exo 25:12 Cast four gold rings for it and fasten them to its four feet, two rings on one side and two on the other. 13And make poles of acacia wood and overlay them with gold. 14Insert the poles into the rings on the sides of the ark, in order to carry it.
The word for “feet” is a little interesting, paam (6471. פַעַם) - time, occurrence, foot, step, beat. When walking, you foot falls can form a beat which associates it with time. Some translations say the gold rings were attached at the “corners” which is pretty far from the definition of the word. Other translations say feet or table “legs” (CEV). I think its correct that the Arc was placed on table legs as it would otherwise only be a cubit and a half high, or about 2.25 feet off the ground and you would be looking down at it.
There is no mention of how the legs were made or if they were also gold plated. They were probably also made of acacia wood but putting gold on it would draw attention to the Ark being set on the ground which some might suggest is defiling. If the gold plated chest were sitting directly on the ground or the legs were gold plated, it would be grounded and not able to build up a charge.
So the gold rings with the poles were likely attached about midway up on the legs, so there is no conductor to the ground, even when carried by the poles.
I would hope it would put God in a little better light than suggesting that He kills for unjust reasons. Making a potentially dangerous object and instructing them how to handle it properly and not to touch it is not much different from Him placing the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil in the Garden. Both the Garden and the Ark represent God’s presence.
The two cherubs and the electric field represent the cherubs guarding the Garden with flaming swords. On the inside of the Ark, I see the the tablets with the ten commandments as a representation of the Tree of Knowledge; Aaron’s staff that budded represents the Tree of Life, and the manna represents the “trees” of the Garden that A&E could eat from.