Well I am certainly glad we have found some common ground!
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If God controlled evolution than it means it was not done by random chance which means all the choices, such as a specific caterpillar feeding on a specific leaf was predestined by God to bring about this or that change which ultimately means there is no free will.
No one ever said God controls every action of every creature, just that he is highly involved with his creation. You, my dear friend, have created a straw man.
I’m not a deist either. A deistic God would not reach out to humanity again and again through prophets, through apostles, through angels, and through his son. He would not send his word to us through writings on stone, through spoken words, through the Holy Spirit or make it into flesh to dwell among us.
But to argue that God controlled everything taking away free will so that random encounters would be orchestrated so that humanity would get here. We are humans by chance. Another life form could have arose. But we were the first that evolved to the point he could reach out to us.
That’s not deism. That’s faith. But to argue God controlled evolution requires evidence that something intervened. Otherwise, just like with the butterfly and passion flowers it’s natural selection within the laws of ecology.
I’m not a deist either.
That was meant to be taken as a slight joke
But to argue that God controlled everything taking away free will so that random encounters would be orchestrated so that humanity would get here.
God doesn’t need to take away the free will of creatures to make sure we come about, but even if he did he certainly has the right to, as they are animals, not humans.
We are humans by chance.
So Jesus only took on human flesh because the first life form that happened to be able to interact with God were humans. Does God even have a plan then, or does he just go with the flow?
Yes Jesus took the form of humans because we are humans.
Humans are animals as well. We’ve simply have been the ones to first evolve the mental capacity to be able to be taught by God. In a billion years short of this planet being destroyed, I imagine the descendants of chimps, or maybe dolphins or something will be next in line to be able to enter into a covenant with God. As far as earthlings are concerned. Or if we unlock the secrets of biogenesis by then, who knows what we will create or the implications of that and God. It’s beyond the material God has given us concerning theology.
I personally don’t see a reason to involve the supernatural in the process of evolution. It makes sense to me without it.
In a billion years short of this planet being destroyed, I imagine the descendants of chimps, or maybe dolphins or something will be next in line to be able to enter into a covenant with God.
Does Revelation have no bearing on your views then?
The reason I don’t disagree with that is because even if you are a Young Earth Creationist, it means that God has ALSO made all those decisions at the moment of creation.
It doesn’t seem to bother the YEC’s … so why should it bother Christians who embrace the more nuanced cluster of Evolutionary processes that would do the very same thing over millions of years (time that elapses in a mortal way, instead of happening all in one instance)?
You believe Evolution has to have freedom? … like human choice does?
That’s a fairly odd position I think. Is that what you meant? Or am I misunderstanding what you meant?
Revelation does play a role in my theology. But what the most symbolic , hyperbolic story in the bible does not shape is my understanding of science or a literal worldview.
I don’t believe in a dragon coming out of the sky with other dragons or stars to wage war against a winged woman and her child as horned beasts rise from the sea and earth under a blood red moon as four horsemen from another place begin to annihilate humanity and earth while we await for the son of that winged woman to ride from space on a horse and pull a sword from his mouth and kill all evil. Then we all find ourselves literally in a room where there is a book and God calls out the names of billions of humans and those left over get cast into a giant lake made of fire that does not give off light. Most people agree that portion is clearly symbolic. So I’m not sure why suddenly the last few chapters are taken literally.
Consider what Isaiah 65:17-25 says about the new heaven and new earth.
On that new heaven and earth there is still child birth, there is still death, and so on. How many times does God create a new heaven ad earth?
Yes I believe that freedom is involved in evolution. Animals make choices. They are not just these robots under supernatural control. If they are snot robots under supernatural control, then they must be able to make a choice. Even humans have instincts. We still are able to make choices. When I move around many insects they notice me and make choices on the best place to hide. Butterflies look at plants and make choices based on eggs already there, and so on. Sure they are not as emotionally evolved as us and able to preform at a higher cognitive level but far from mindless supernaturally controlled bots.
God choosing what mutations appear has nothing to do with free will.
3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”
This is taken directly from Revelation 21, if you think it means something else than what is clearly expressed, I am happy to entertain it.
As to the passage you pulled from Isaiah see the link I have pasted below.
https://digitalcommons.andrews.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1204&context=pubs
I’m not going to read through 25 pages of thoughts just to respond.
You should only have to read pages 16-17 underneath the heading: “A New Heavens and a New Earth”. I’m sorry I should have made that clear in my original post.
I actually ended up reading several pages, just not the footnotes.
It was not really convincing. It seemed like circular argument. They essentially said the verse in Isaiah is just symbolic and means israel being restored, but the verses in revelation is literal because it’s meant to be literal.
To me that’s not a sound argument at all.
Revelation is hyperlinking back to Isaiah.
It’s symbolic language and it’s not really clear. But what is clear, is that there is no reason for all the symbolism to fade into literalism suddenly while all the rest of the verses related are suddenly interpreted through the lens of a literal interpretation of the least few chapters of revelation.
That’s fine. Animals make choices.
But animals don’t get to control the movement of their chromosomes, or decide which genes mutate.
So I really don’t follow your reason for avoiding the proposal that God micro-manages Evolution.
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I guess I don’t know how to explain it in any clearer way than I already did and can’t see a way to connect the dots of how choices played a role in evolution and not just mutations.
Just to make doubly sure I am explaining my thoughts on this as best I can:
I am a human… who is the culmination of millions of years of primate evolution. I didn’t get to choose any of the mutations that led to me.
So to insist that God can’t choose the evolutionary path of my ancestors seems to be an odd taboo in your mind.
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So did those primates have any free will?
If it makes sense for a non-human primate to have free will, then yes - - OF COURSE - - those creatures would have free will.
What has that topic have to do with the notion that God specifies every mutation? Mutations aren’t about free will, right?