For light to have a speed time is needed. So much time is involved in the distance light travels. Therefore time is required in any light year calculation. (so much distance per so much time) Does time exist as we know it on earth and area in deep space? If so, what proof is there? If not, then one could never claim light took a billion years (or whatever) out in distant space to get to earth. Unless someone proves time not only exists, but exists precisely as we are familiar with here on earth out in the far universe, then all cosmological distances and times are incorrect. Let’s see someone do that here. I think it may be a challenge, because I am told that science does not really even know what time is!
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- LOL! I think you are making “time” considerably more mysterious than it needs to be.
I knew an agnostic atheist who simply defined space as a three-dimensional Euclidean metric space and time as a one-dimensional Euclidean metric space. Relativists will, of course, object to treating space and time that way—but that is a separate argument.
But notice what follows. The fact that philosophers and physicists can disagree about what time is does not mean that we cannot measure temporal intervals, any more than disagreement about what space ultimately is prevents us from measuring distance.
So if your argument is that cosmological ages and distances are unreliable because nobody has first proved what time “really is” in deep space, I don’t think that gets you very far. You would need to identify something specifically wrong with the physical measurements or the theory connecting those measurements—not merely point to a philosophical question about the nature of time.
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You can refer to something you do not know in many ways. Your definition is an attempt to define time by earthcentric thinking and terms. As for relativists, it doesn’t much matter if they object. For them everything has to be relative to the fishbowl of earth.
As for measuring temporal intervals that get back to time on and near earth (say the area of this solar system) Show me anyone that measured time in deep space?
What would be specifically wrong with claims that light takes so much time to move so much distance in far space is that time needs to exist out there (exactly as we know it exists here) Unless you can prove it does, no distant light year measurements are valid. I will allow one light day tfor the sake of argument (being generous) though. Even though the info is quite limited on the Voyager spacecrafts one of them is almost a light day away! Beyond that, forget about it.
False. A light year is a distance.
Time is more required for a light year calculaton than it is required for a league calculation, a millimetre calculation, a furlong calculation, an AU calculation or a fathom calculation.
Most cosmological distance calculations, especially the trigonometrical ones, can be done using any distance unit. The nature of light isn’t involved.
- What do you mean by “move”?
There are events such as supernova in deep space. We observe pulsers. Light emitted from distance galaxies have electromagnetic frequencies.
Just because there is not a consensus acknowledged deeper understanding of time does not mean there is the slightest doubt of its existence, here or elsewhere.
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Claiming that time and the speed of light are significantly different elsewhere in the universe is a much more novel and non established claim than claiming that it is, so the burden of proof is on the on the one making that claim, especially to the extent that you are. Given the way you have used logic in previous discussions, I suspect that the only proof you would accept would be if the Bible said it before Abraham shows up. Even this post, saying that unless someone can prove these things to you everything accepted about history and time is wrong, suggests that this thread is made for insisting science is wrong and not for real discussion.
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In theoretical physics, the definition of time is quite deep. That is valuable research.
People have had an intuitive understanding of time since ancient times. One way has been the passing of the seasons. That method has been used to date ice cores back at least 800,000 years. See the research on Antarctic glaciers https://www.antarcticglaciers.org/
In particular, Ice core basics
The thing is that the vast majority of people here have accepted the value of science, and are having conversations about how and where science and faith intersect. I would say hardly anyone thinks the way to integrate science and faith is to dismiss science with a wave of the hand.
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“Is there a really?” This question from Leonard Susskind reminded me of a philosophical question I sometimes ask the skeptic, “Do events actually happen?”
The distance can be measured in miles. The conversion to light years does require the speed of light, but it isn’t used in the measurement of distance. The distance to stars is so great that light years are used for convenience.
The burden is on you to prove time is different. Given God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, good luck with that.
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A distance in theory based on the measured speed of light in fishbowl earth. So time is required. Now if you wanted to express that distance is another word say ‘imaginary distances’ or something, fine. The trigonometry is just belief using trigonometry. For example, take a part of time and space from our solar system, (time is involved of course, since we might take 2 measures a year from earth at different orbital positions). Then we grab a measure from distant space (for example to sn1987a) and then we basically place both lines on a paper computer, and consider them equal. Equal in time and space. In other words the claim is that a line from our space and time equals any line we draw out into deep unknown time and space. No one knows what time is like out there. No one knows if it even exists or exists like we know it to exist here in the fishbowl. Then there is space. What is space like out there, far from anywhere man has ever experienced? WE assume it is all like fishbowl space here. Then there is time and space together, what would that be like way out in the distant unknown universe? Sp please do not make little faith proclamations about ‘trigonometry’ as if they were worth anything at all and were more than statements of purest faith alone.
Well for sample if we perceive that something is orbiting something else way out there, that means movement. They also say basically everything is moving out there do they not? Expanding away, etc etc. They interpret red shifted light with movement, no? For example the rings of SN1987a grew. (moved) at a certain rate in time. Time as we saw it here from fishbowl earth of course.
Where do you observe them? Here! In our time. It therefore takes so much time, fishbowl time. Yes, of course it needs to do that. This in no way tells us what time itself is like out there
Claiming that time and the speed of light are exactly the same in the universe is a faith based claim. You are welcome to your beliefs. You have the burden of proof for that belief/claim. As we will see here, you will fail to prove it. How sweet it is!
You’re the one with the burden of proof, but with your confidence I’m sure you can prove it.
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No. The distance of a light year can theoretically be measured in miles in our heads. Not in reality. The light year itself is based on the theoretical distance light takes to travel in one year. (of fishbowl earth time, as measured here in the earth area) No one has been out there to check. Man has not gone more than a few light seconds away from earth. To have the miles involved in a light year distance, one would need to travel at the speed of light a whole year. Never happened. Your authority ends at a few light seconds. Well, let’s be generous here and make it a whole light day. Beyond that, it is unknown space. Unknown time. Unknown space and time. Total belief in other words. Belief that yields conclusions that fly in the face of God’s record I might add.
Do you claim that time is the same in the universe? Prove it. My claim is that you do not actually know. You just believe real hard.
You claimed that it isn’t, so now it’s your job to prove it. Believing real hard seems to work pretty well for you.