I am a former YEC, conservative Christian apologist, but I now doubt all the miracles of the Bible. I find the YEC position completely untenable, not based on “science”, but based on the text of Genesis itself. I doubt things like the virgin birth, healing miracles, splitting the Red Sea, etc. Yet I still find myself believing in the Lordship of Christ, and that he truly fulfilled prophecy and is the Messiah, and Savior of the world. And I do believe God raised him from the dead. Just not really sure it was how it’s described in the gospels.
Even though I’m no longer a “conservative”, I feel like at least things were packaged together nicely in my theological bubble when I held to that worldview. Now, I feel like an outcast. Can someone truly be a Christian and strongly doubt the purported miracles written in the Bible?
Now Thomas , one of the twelve, called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe.
Hello Adam, I think phases of disbelief/doubt come and go on our christian walk. But if our foundation is on the rock you will find yourself on the right path.
You said you still believe in the foundational Christian miracle. Amen, all of reality emanates from this true center. As we get further from the center of Christ things get a bit fuzzy and distorted. metaphors, ANE worldviews, speculative escetologies and the like are only true as they relate to Christ. So my encouragement to you is hold loosely to all those fuzzy edges for now and be drawn into the center and find peace of soul.
Pauls day was no different than now, a torrent of information and opinions. Be encouraged by Paul’s words.
Now I would remind you, brothers,[a] of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8 Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.
Adam, you are not alone. I am a Christian who does not take everything in the Bible as meant literally. I believe there are miracles in the Bible and answers to prayer today, but ultimately, I do not have all the answers and just place trust in God that His will be done.
Remember that “outcasts” are the sweet spot for Jesus - and in their company is where he was so often found; not just because they “needed the doctor” most, but he seemed to even prefer their company over the establishment religious insiders. So … in a very real sense, Adam, welcome home!. It isn’t the nice and pretty establishment bubble that seems so comforting to so many, but it is a place of love and reckoning, and meeting the actual Jesus who is less interested in what doctrinal tests you can pass than he is in life and love - and that you enjoy those things abundantly in him.
Don’t forget to examine the causes of doubt - the doubts deserve just as much critical scrutiny as the beliefs. The problem with YEC claims of miracles is not that they are miracles, but that there is abundant evidence that they did not happen; they neither match Scripture nor the evidence from creation and history. But the specific miracles that are recorded in the Bible are identified as rare exceptions to the norm. They were recorded precisely because people had enough scientific knowledge to know that they weren’t normal. When Gabriel tells Mary she’ll have a baby, she points out that there’s an important part of the baby-making process that hasn’t happened yet. (Note that technically, “virgin birth” refers to the claim that the birth process was miraculous, an idea advocated in Roman Catholicism; the Bible affirms virgin conception but gives no evidence for the rest of the process being physically atypical.) Indeed, the temptations of Jesus included appeals to use miracles for convenience or to show off, and demands for a sign were rejected by both Jesus and Paul. The Bible affirms that physical miracles are quite rare events, in agreement with personal experience and other historical records. If Jesus is Lord, He can work or not work miracles as He sees best. If we don’t a priori reject miracles as impossibilities (which is not logical reasoning), then we need to consider the evidence and decide what is most plausible.
Mark 9:23 And Jesus said to him, “‘If you can’! All things are possible for one who believes.”
Mark 9:24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, “I believe; help my unbelief!”
There is a simple “Get out clause” for acts of God, that is
God can do anything
If the problem is plasibility or contrary to the science and understanding we know then that clause will suffice. Whether you believe these thing or not, is less important than accepting the power of God to do such things. Its sort of part of His reson d’etre. That is the definition of God.
I guess, the question is, does it matter to you?
The virgin birth can be problematic in terms of the sacrifice. If Christ was not divine then our salvation comes from a man and God has no part in it. The Gospels allude to it, if not explicitly…
Being a Christian is not solely about doctrine or belief. There are many denominations with varying emphases. At the end of the day it is more about what works for you than what others think.
I am starting out with a very blunt and even brutal answer to this…however, bear with me as the ending will move away from that angle…
The blunt brutal part
Im not even going to include the creation and flood parts into the the story in my first response…i dont need to at this point as the very dilemma that i have always maintained on these forums is now highlighted in bold with this OP.
My answer is blunt because I have watched a non Christian paragliding mate fall to his death off a cliff…he fell 70 meters right before my eyes. Ive been to the funeral of a teenage second cousin who was killed instantly in a car crash…neither of the above believed in or had faith in God. For them, its “kaput” i think. We must challenge in very confronting ways the notion of just meandering through life without thinking about what comes next…genuinelly tackling the questions of epistomology doesnt seem to interest many these days and it should.
I am not suggesting that we follow in the footsteps of Pastor Stephen Anderson and whip it into poeple with a jug cord…absolutely not, however, i do agree we should “get up on the pulpit and scream it out over the airwaves”. Young people wander around these days with faces buried in their mobile phones seemingly oblivious to what is around them… frankly that annoys the absolute s$%t out of me. They dont even seem to notice the wildlife, the trees, the beauty in nature around us (ive gone off on a tangent there…sorry).
Back to the topic…
This OP is the very reason why allowing oneself to be consumed by a religion of works based belief (not faith) has resulted in difficulty reconciling the fundamental doctrine of salvation. You seek physical proofs of God and are demanding that miracles be proven to you…the very thing that Christ refused to do whenever that was demanded of Him by those of the town of Nazareth and at his trial.
The entire problem with the above OP position is that:
God, a spirit being, performed a miracle. He broke the laws of all science, made himself into a baby inside the womb of a virgin and was born as a human child.
Christ died on the cross specifically to make atonement for sin.
Christ ressurected Himself on the third day (a miracle that has no scientific explanation) so that He could demonstrate to those who believe on Him, that we may be saved from “kaput” in exactly the same way.
The notion of the Second Coming is not scientific…its scientifically impossible for any of the things prophesied regarding the second coming can come true!
Now here you are attempting to reconcile that miracles are fairytales and yet you want to include the notion of God in your life? To what end, so you can be a better person?
When i read your post above, and use simple logic as a person who was not initially raised a Christian and whos extended family are largely atheists, is that you are now convinced that there is no such thing as eternal life. You appear to think that you should at least follow your conscience and adhere to the New Testament principles of human decency.
Given the above, might i challenge you with this…Now that naturalism has convinced you that what we see today is fundational to what the past was like (Lamarks view) why do you think you need God to be a better person? Evolution already has a scientific answer to that.
Science very specifically tells us morality doesnt come from God…
Look at the Google AI response to the question “where did morality come from”
Morality is a product of both evolution and culture, and it has its origins in the human ability to interact with others:
Morality is a result of evolution and is thought to have developed as a way for humans to live in large social groups. It’s believed that morality evolved as a consequence of humans’ intellectual abilities, which were promoted by natural selection.
Im sorry to be so blunt in my answer, however, the reason why is because people must be sure of their faith. There is no fence sitting, it is not a matter of trying to make one feel better inside. The prophet Samuel was brutal in his response to King Sauls own efforts at reconciling the wages of sin when he said to the King “to obey is better than to sacrifice”. I dont question the natural reading of the bible, i just accept it, find the evidences that support the natural reading, and then focus on the important stuff…faith in the miracle of salvation, redemption, and restoration, that one day Christ will come again and this life will not end up in “kaput”!
The bottom line is, either exercise largely blind faith that goes against all science or, “kaput”. Those are the two choices.
The kind and caring part
I would just like to also make note at this point…Kendel on this forum has shown me a faith that seems to focus on two things
she loves God and accepts his gospel
she loves his creation and spends time out in it marvelling at the wonder that God has created
From that i glean that whats important to her is the gospel.
( i mention Kendel because she was kind enough to send me some photos out in nature that i found very inspiring)
Whilst i am not a follower of the principle that we can save ourselves entirely through our own efforts, what we can do is live the gospel following the footsteps of the parable of the Good Samaritan.
Love is a willingness to help others and i dont think that is a works based salvation…its the essence of Gods love.
Christ said, in as much as you did it to the least of these my bretheren, you did it to me!
EDIT…i forgot the last part of your post…
Honestly, the answer to that question is emphatically, no!
That then leaves you with a decision…
“Faith” (that there might be eternal life despite it being scientifically impossible)
OR
“Kaput” (which is what the science tells us is inevitable)
I choose blind faith (the salvation part) with a lot of historical evidence that supports the vast portion of the historicity of the bible story.
Yes you can still be a Christian and not support conservatism, not believe in young earth creationism or even any form of intelligent design for that matter and be highly skeptical of claims of the supernatural.
I’m anti conservatism. I don’t believe in any form of intelligent design including evolutionary creationism or fine tuning of the universe.
I don’t believe Mary was supernaturally impregnated by God. I think Jesus was a human just like us, but so in tuned into God he raised up and given power and authority. I don’t know if Jesus actually walked on water or if it was symbolism around tohu wabohu stuff. I don’t know if it was a physical or spiritual resurrection.
Im in agreement with Richards response to your post here.
The Bible asks of us a very straightforward but significant question here…
“believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved”
What do we need to believe then?
That Christ is the man prophesied in Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government shall be upon His shoulder. And His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
That He died on the cross and was raised again proving to us that
a. he is capable of defying science and raising humans from the dead…even those who have rotted in the grave or been consumed by wild animals and defecated out their rear ends (sorry its gross i know, but that’s the true extent of what resurrection is)
b. that all who are saved are capable of rising up off the ground and into the sky, and being whisked away into space (defying gravity, surviving outside an atmosphere with breathable air)
c. that the saved will live forever without ever getting sick (scientifically impossible)
that all those who do not take up the cross and follow Him (Christ) will be burned in a fire that will destroy everything that sin has corrupted.
4 God is asking of us something that requires essentially “blind faith” (doubting Thomas - “blessed are they who believe but have not seen”)
I think others here have better words than i do for the above, however, I’m pretty sure most here would agree that the gospel is a miracle and all of it requires blind faith.
Fortunately, there is a workaround and its a doozy i reckon…
I think Christ set us a wonderfully easy method for attaining salvation…
Love God with all your mind, heart and soul AND your neighbour as yourself (forget the rest its irrelevant i think)
The OP may feel like an outcast, but he is not an outcast to God. He loves the OP just as much as anyone else here…anyone who believes is worthy of His love and all that is required is that we accept the free gift that comes along with it.
Hi Adam,
Welcome to this forum. I hope you find this a helpful place to be. You will certainly encounter a variety of perspectives on you concerns.
@adamjedgar mentioned me, which was overly kind as well as well as amusing. He and I agree on almost nothing, but we are both Christians - as are most of the people here - and concerned about the well-being of other people - as are most of the people here. Somehow he and I have come to a form of detente. I’m willing to accept that as a miracle.
You’re right about the package. It seemed coherent as well as complete. But it requires ignoring or changing true things you know to be incongruous to the package/model. Adding in the concept of “conservatism,” which in the U.S. is often confused with “christian,” just makes the problem worse.
I’m assuming your background in apologetics is also informing your concern, because you’ve unraveled the arguments you used to find compelling. Used to use to try to convince other people. That would certainly add to the feeling of being an outcast. Jesus tells you you aren’t, though.
I’ve been confronted with significant ideas for years that challenge the easy answers I have from church and christian culture in the U.S. I’m a (theologically mostly orthodox) Christian, but I understand that I my view of nature, humans and culture are not accepted by most of the Christians I know in real life or my pastors. They do not dovetail nicely with each other. But I am convinced they are true. So, I’ve had to learn to live with mess and be a lot more humble about what I can say I know is true.
A few years ago some of us had a book discussion here. One of the things I liked about the book was the term, “fragility of faith.” There isn’t much today that supports faith, where there had been world view and cultural componants in the past that did. It’s just harder. And apologetics that demand that faith is rational and therefore “obvious” don’t help, when we recognize that that just isn’t true.
There are people here who can give you better theological answers than I can. I’m glad you’re here, though, and encourage you to pull up your chair and talk with the folks here. Start working through what you do think and learning to live with the mess.
Funny that’s not how it worked in the Bible. For a fact, in the Bible, it happened in front of crowds of unbelievers. Seems some people are very gullible. What a shame.
Don’t really have a definition of God since God is considered a mystery. No one can create a definition that is all encompassing to define god. I could say god is god. But that’s also a useless definition.
God may or may not be a supernatural being. The supernatural may be something magical that defies a logical material world or it could be another dimension that’s simply one we don’t understand. God could be magical or he could be a being that evolved in the universe a way very different from us. A cosmic intelligence. A being from another dimension that is able to transcends them. We just don’t know. No one does. Since it’s something that we can’t honestly know, I just let it be.
No, it is very simple. Faith in God was much more widespread and acceptable. The existence of God was basically taken for granted, it was only the precise nature or plethora that was disputed. Miracles would not be seen as unusual because the knowledge was not there to dispute them.
Modern Christianity has different battles to fight. The actual existence of God is one of them.
Perhaps you can show me where in the Bible your claim is supported? Can you show me where the Jews who rejected Jesus believed in Jesus and saw the miracles for that reason?
Maybe send one of these “magical men of god” you have witnessed preforming miracles to go to a hospital and heal some kids with cancer…… I mean surely at least one American kid with verified cancer is part of his holy plan to heal…….
Maybe you can even summon a few dozen of them and bless a few people with incurable diseases at hospitals with instant healing.
Maybe you can guess what number I’m thinking. Have a church fast and pray on it. It’s between 0 and 200. It’s a whole number. Heck I’ll even toss is it’s an odd number. For a fact, it’s just 2 digits. The first digit is an even number. The second is an odd.