God help. I have to commend you, perhaps I’d never thought you’d get so far. In your comment, all you have really done is allow for the mere conceptual possibility that theos can mean ‘divine’ through the appeal to a few examples from the entire ancient Mediterranean world where ‘theos’ is translated as something besides ‘God’, no doubt an enormously tiny minority of uses. This is why Strong’s Greek Lexicon doesn’t even list ‘divine’ as a possibility. We’ll see, moving forwards, that although you open up this can as a mere possibility, it is vastly outweighed by the evidence, and in fact you have made a number of outright errors regarding the Greek language. I must be truly thankful that I learned enough koine Greek earlier this year to be able to catch these things. This comment will represent my current standing on the issue. This will be your argument for translating theos as divine:
With this in mind, let’s return to our passage.
John 1:
1 Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος. [11]
Do you see that? It says καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος. That’s right, it’s nominative theos without the definite article, and placed before a vowel (ἦ[ν]). That indicates that theos here is adjectival, meaning “divine”. The reasons typically given for an alternative rendering are not grammatical, but theological.
This is an outright misundestanding of the Greek language, but before I address this, I will develop other arguments and demonstrate that you’ve misunderstood the Greek language elsewhere.
You said “The text says the “Logos is with Theos and that the Logos is Theos””. Now I know you haven’t actually read the Greek. The Greek actually says “and theos was the logos”. The word order is completely the other way around. That’s the complete reverse of your claim that it reads “the Logos is the Theos”. This word order, with the lack of a definite article, is precisely why so many commentators acknowledge that theos is being used here as the equivalent of an adjective (the way you claimed was impossible), not as a noun (“God”).
Actually, not only can I read John 1:1 in the original koine Greek, but I have read it and have watched an entire Greek lesson video on it and I’m more than familiar with this. You appear to have read your lexicon without actually having a clue on what it was saying. The claim that the original Greek says “and theos was the logos”, although technically correct, is misleading. In koine Greek, word order/syntax doesn’t matter at all since the language is constructed through inflecions that tell you which part of the sentence is the subject, object, verb, etc. That’s why you could write in Greek “I love John” and “John loves me”, but in both cases, it will mean “I love John”. Why? Because all you have to do is inflect I/me in both sentences in the nominative case, which makes it the subject, and inflect John in both sentences to the accusative case, making it the direct object. Thus, no matter how you write that sentence (there are 36 different ways to write it in Greek), it will mean “I love John” in English every single time. In other words, the syntax in the Greek has zero preference for either the translation “the Word was God” or “God was the Word”. (The relevance of cases will be important later, but for now I am pointing out that they are important as well as Greek grammar in general.) Syntax doesn’t actually reflect the proper word order in English, since Greek is an inflected language.
The Greek in John 1:1 might as well say “theos was the logos/word”. Notice, immediately, ‘divine’ doesn’t make any sense if this is the syntax preferred in the English, since it would say “divine was the logos/word.” That makes no sense, so one would expect you out of all people to support wording it the other way around, “the logos/word was divine”. Moving on;
You said “how can the Logos be both with Theos and Theos at the same time? A contradiction! Substituting ‘Logos’ with ‘Jesus’ changes nothing”. Of course substituting “logos” with “Jesus” changes nothing. But substituting “theos” with “divine” (as the grammar clearly indicates), changes everything. Now there’s no contradiction at all, regardless of whether we read “logos” as “the word” or “Jesus”.
This supposed contradiction was already solved when we saw in my previous responses that the work of recent scholarship (well, I don’t know if Alan Segal can be considered recent, but Boyarin and Sommer sure are) has established that in pre-Christian Judaic circles, God could have been considered to be multi-personal. We’ve seen that the number of persons aren’t fixed at all, some circles believing in a 2 in 1 God, some in a 10 in 1, and some even in a 100 in 1 God! Thus, John 1:1 makes perfect sense if we simply consider it in the established and widespread tradition of a multi-personal God, where you have a single God (the Word was God) that has two different persons (and the Word was with God). If this wasn’t a problem for the pre-Christian Judaic circles, one can only wonder why it would be a problem for the Christians themselves. So, the argument from contradiction falls flat in consideration of Second Temple Jewish belief.
I didn’t say anything about arguing di-theism from Hurtado. I’ll get back to that part later since I’m almost out of time and the lexical data on John 1:1 needs to be addressed first.
(strangely, you never came back to this in your comment) In fact, Jonathan, you said precisely that:
From Hurtado, you can argue for binitarianism or bi-theism, but not Trinitarianism.
So, you did in fact misunderstand Hurtado’s comments (more then once) to assume that ditheism was possible. I had to quote Hurtado’s own comments on peoples misunderstanding of his use of binitarianism and Fletcher-Louis’s distinction between binitarianism and ditheism for you to realize this.
Anyhow, in a tiny number of texts, ‘theos’ is translated in ways besides ‘God’. Let’s actually take a look at how theos is used in the Gospel of John. Literally every time theos is used in the entire Gospel of John to my familiarity, it translates as ‘God’. So, as we will soon see, trying to translate it as ‘divine’ in John 1:1 only will be an extreme anamoly. It doesn’t matter where you look in John, whether it’s 1:34, 36, 49, 51; 3:2, 3, 5, 16, 17, 18, 21, 33, 34, 36, etc, etc, etc – almost 70 times is theos used in John, and every single time without exception John means it to say ‘God’. I am aware of no exceptions as of yet. In fact, according to Strong’s Lexicon, this is the translation rates of theos in the KJV to say the least:
God (1,320x), god (13x), godly (3x), God-ward (with G4214) (2x), miscellaneous (5x).
Even assuming a disgusting margin of error, we can already see it’s an extreme anomaly to consider divine as a usage in the New Testament. It wasn’t even used once in the KJV, and likely was never used once or close to never used once in modern translations like the NRSV, NIV, NASB, CSB, etc. Not to mention, ‘theos’ is used seven times in the Johannine Prologue (vv. 1-18)! Why translate it as ‘divine’ in any of those other instances, especially since John uses it in such a consistent theme? Perhaps because it would never make sense in those other instances. In fact, ‘theos’ is used twice in John 1:1 alone, not once! Notice what happens when we translate it as divine both times, which would only make sense if that’s what John meant the second time since he uses theos twice in parallelism in 1:1: “In the beginning was the logos, and the logos was with divine, and the logos was divine” – the logos was with divine? Huh? Makes no sense! It appears as if saying that in only one specific case we should translate it as divine and not the others is special pleading. But the problems continue adding up.
The NET footnote not only identifies this as grammatically possible (contradicting your first point), but says it is preferable to see a qualitative aspect to theos here (also contradicting your first point), and then cites two translations which give this rendering (contradicting your second point). How could you say “I still have not found a translation that says “divine”” when the NET footnote cites two of them for you? Additionally, you didn’t comment on the NEB’s rendering, “what God was, the Word was”. Why not?
In fact, almost everything here is wrong. The footnote of the NET mentions three translations in total: NEB, REB, and Moffatt. We both know the NEB doesn’t use “divine”, in fact, I have a copy of the NEB that I just double-checked and I could send a picture to prove it doesn’t use divine. What about the REB? A quick google search will yield the following translation for REB’s John 1:1 almost identical to the NEB (since they were both published by Cambridge University):
“In the beginning the Word already was. The Word was in God’s presence, and what God was, the Word was.”
So, what’s left? The Moffatt translation – I checked this one, and it in fact uses divine, so you at least did not misunderstand that part of the footnote. The problems, of course, are that Moffatt’s translation is almost a century old, and it was produced by one single translator (Moffatt) rather than a committee (which is how modern translations are done since it’s been long recognized at this point that a single scholar couldn’t hope to reliably translate the entire Bible). That makes it quite a weak authority, and again, I can simply rest on all the high quality translations today to make my case for me. You still have not addressed why modern translations don’t even offer a footnote for the divine possibility. The NET offers a footnote mentioning the Moffatt translation, but in fact the NET actually discounts Moffatt’s translation itself in the footnote as I’ve shown before:
Translations like the NEB, REB, and Moffatt are helpful in capturing the sense in John 1:1c, that the Word was fully deity in essence (just as much God as God the Father). However, in contemporary English “the Word was divine” (Moffatt) does not quite catch the meaning since “divine” as a descriptive term is not used in contemporary English exclusively of God. The translation “what God was the Word was” is perhaps the most nuanced rendering, conveying that everything God was in essence, the Word was too.
So, while you are quick to make note of the NET’s reference to Moffatt, you are not so quick to mention that the NET discounts this translation because it fails to capture the original Greek meaning! The same reasons why ‘divine’ was rejected in the NET, we’ve already seen, were reiterated by John Fish and Al Garza, two other scholars who discount this translation because it does not correctly capture the meaning of the text. Can you name a single modern translation produced by a committee that uses ‘divine’?
Let’s move back to your evidence for a ‘divine’ translation, where you rely on Henry George’s work. In fact, you misunderstood George, and even if we put that aside, you get the Greek wrong. Theos, in John 1:1, is a noun, not an adjective. This is not something in dispute, this is something you can find from basically any interlinear you look at, like the one I referred to earlier:
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/1.htm
In the second use of theos in John 1:1, simply hover your mouse of the blue letters that say ‘N-NMS’, and it will tell you that this is a noun in the nominative masculine singular. The Interlinear Study Bible produces the same result. So, even if we allow for the possibility of consistency with an adjective (I had to doublecheck a textbook to see that the inflection of theos is not only consistent with Greek nouns but also adjectives, which was annoying to see since I had hoped this would have finally refuted your position), the word is primarily completely consistent with usage as a noun, which is why all committees translate it as a noun. ‘Divine’ is not anywhere in the mainstream, it’s simply been long noted as a grammatically consistent possibility with John 1:1. But there are grammatically consistent translations with a LOT of verses in the New Testament. The mainstream, in fact, the absolute consensus of all committees to have ever produced translations respected by scholarship have used God, not divine, as a translation.
If John wanted to say ‘divine’ in John 1:1, why didn’t he use the Greek word θεϊκός (theikos) instead? John uses θεϊκός a LOT of other times in his gospel, why not here in John 1:1 if that’s precisely what he meant? This word precisely means ‘godlike’ or ‘divine’ and it would have been unambiguous to John’s readers. Why did he instead use the the standard Greek word for God, and why did John use theos six other times in his prologue where every other time it meant God, including one other time in John 1:1? Why would John confuse his readers in such a way? Indeed, it appears as if John’s stupidity has caused thousands of years of confusion, and has tricked even the worlds dullest to most erudite committees into thinking God was the better translation, so much so that they didn’t even offer a footnote for the other possibility (and when they did, it was only to reject it like the NET). Indeed, John might have pulled off the worlds greatest ploy in translation history!
Alright, let’s get back to Earth now. To end this response off, I’ll simply point to your further misunderstanding of Stephen Voorvinde’s words.
“On the basis of grammar alone v. 1 can be read as stating at the very least that the Word was divine. The further step of identifying the Word with God depends on contextual considerations. Evidence in this direction firstly comes from the expression μονογενὴς θεός, which is the most probable of the variant readings in vs. 18. Secondly, the identity of Jesus as God appears to be the presupposition of the Gospel as a whole.”[2]
Voorvinde is not saying that the grammatical reading is divine, Voorvinde is simply saying that divine is an equally possible grammatical reading to God. Thus, Voorvinde continues, we need further considerations in order to decide between which translation to adopt, and that’s exactly what Voorvinde does. Voorvinde notes that the context makes it clear that John is using theos to mean God, and so the context powerfully tips the scale to the God translation. Voorvinde is basically saying that the context doesn’t allow for a ‘divine’ translation, just as Fish, Garza, and the NET have noted. I have to note that a god is also a translation that is considered possible under the Greek. C.H. Dodd says this:
If a translation were a matter of substituting words, a possible translation of [QEOS EN hO LOGOS]; would be, “The Word was a god”. As a word-for-word translation it cannot be faulted.
There is as much evidence for translating it as divine as there is for a god. In fact, a god is actually more widespread in lesser known translations than divine has ever been. The reason why they are both not adopted is because, although the grammar doesn’t invalidate them, the context does – both John’s usage of theos in other places in his gospel and the fact that John 1:2 actually continues to say that the Logos was the medium through which creation happened, etc, etc, etc demonstrate that God is the best translation as we read on the Johannine Prologue. Daniel Wallace, who has basically “written” the textbook on koine Greek, explains why ‘divine’ is an inferior translation:
Possible translations are as follows: “What God was, the Word was” (NEB), or “the Word was divine” (a modified Moffatt). In this second translation, “divine” is acceptable only if it is a term that can be applied only to a true deity. However, in modern English, we use it to refer to angels, theologians, even a meal! Thus “divine” could be misleading in an English translation. The idea of a qualitative Θεὸς here is that the Word had all the attributes and qualities that “the God” (of 1:1b) had. In other words, he shared the essence of the Father, though they differed in person. The construction of the evangelist chose to express this idea was the most concise way he could have stated that the Word was God and yet distinct from the Father. [all italics and bold not mine] (pg. 269, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics)
Wallace writes that “divine” can only be used as a translation if it could have the effect that it does in the original Greek: to demonstrate that the Word was in the full essence of the deity, of God. However, Wallace says, since ‘divine’ only serves this function in the Greek but may not serve this function in the English because the varying use of the English word divine may also mean something lesser than the full essence of the deity, it is a misleading translation. This is literally what ever other quoted translator so far that we’ve quoted on this forum says. Divine is grammatically possible, but it is a misleading translation because it doesn’t mean the same thing in English as it does in Greek.