Does Romans 1:18-21 deny the existence of "true" atheists?

Faith & Science Conversation
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It never is the intended use but that is the misuse to which it can be put once it is believed in uncritically.

To understand the creator in the agreed upon manner. In exchange for such flimsily supported conclusions people are distracted from searching for the real thing with all the personal growth that would entail - and for what? For a possibly false certainty which many others too have signed off on. You would have to desperately doubt the existence of anything greater than oneself or else doubt the capacity the creator has provided you with to know Him directly to make such a deal.

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Contrary to what Billy Graham said.

I’m not sure how much of a joke it actually is to him.

Ricky Gervais: Why I’m an Atheist

But what are atheists really being accused of?
The dictionary definition of God is “a supernatural creator and overseer of the universe.” Included in this definition are all deities, goddesses and supernatural beings. Since the beginning of recorded history, which is defined by the invention of writing by the Sumerians around 6,000 years ago, historians have cataloged over 3700 supernatural beings, of which 2870 can be considered deities.

So next time someone tells me they believe in God, I’ll say “Oh which one? Zeus? Hades? Jupiter? Mars? Odin? Thor? Krishna? Vishnu? Ra?..” If they say “Just God. I only believe in the one God,” I’ll point out that they are nearly as atheistic as me. I don’t believe in 2,870 gods, and they don’t believe in 2,869.

His attitude towards Christian belief hardly seems like a laughing matter for a follower or Christ.

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Is this a trigger for you? That seems to be a pretty strong response considering many of the other much more difficult things in the Bible. There are still verses like Psalm 14:1 or 53:1 as well:

"The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”

Many Christians would probably merge all those together along with Psalm 19:1: “A psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard.”

That is how they read Romans 1:20: 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

I suppose one could take verse 21 as applying to believers only as you seem to do and atheism wasn’t all that common back then so maybe it has some merit. Plus those Psalms are also not really addressing philosophical atheism (at least directly) at all but talking about people who live like there is no God, who live like God is not concerned with human affairs, and they then live greedily and harm others to get ahead without worry. I think that is more the intent of the Psalms but I am not sure they would be open to philosophical atheism either. I doubt Paul would have followed your distinction or thought highly of or made special caveats for intellectual atheists.

Many Christians see atheism not as some simple neutral choice but as a rejection of God. Clearly these atheists today have heard the Gospel message in some form and have access to God, Scripture and His creation which show his eternal nature and divine qualities. The Christian then sprinkles in some Jesus from John 3:

16For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

This leads to the notion that the nonbeliever rejects God and his Son and per Jesus’s own words, he will reject them before the Father. There are a lot of other moving parts in this belief besides just what we see in Romans 1 and 2. I think the issue is a bit more complicated and I think sin and a spiritual component don’t make it easier.

It might not be tactful in a debate to tell someone they don’t believe in God because their wickedness suppresses the truth but is there something wrong with being a Christians and believing what the Bible plainly narrates? Do you not think there is some spiritual component related to belief/unbelief? A reformed theologian would say those of us believe only because God elected us to no? We are all evil and unable to believe. But even for non-reformed theology, faith is certainly not a purely intellectual endeavor in my book. It seems to me that the Bible speaks regularly of hard hearts, people being given away and wickedness suppressing the truth and obscuring the light and so on. I think this is a very complicated issue though. Because it immediately raises issues of election and why some believe and some don’t. I don’t consider myself good or better than atheists because I know God. I consider myself worse. Having seen the light and goodness of God and still sinning? Woo boy! Let the Catholic guilt flow! I consider myself lucky and blessed and wish the same for everyone. If I truly believe I was saved by God’s grace, how can I look down on anyone else? All I can do is be thankful for what I have.

It might be frowned upon but the Bible does clearly speak of hard hearts and wickedness suppressing the truth. But this occurs in believers and non-believers. If we want to take our faith seriously we have to contend with the fact that sin and spiritual forces are at work in the world. Evil definitely dims the light of spiritual truth. The Bible seems to indicate nature plainly reveals God’s glory. This does not leave atheism in a good light. I see a lot of excuses for atheism in this thread. I had to check to make sure I was on a Christian website and not the Secular web. As a Christian I cannot view “rejecting God’s offer of grace and salvation” as good or neutral thing. Of course I understand shades of gray and subscribe to wider-hope theories and realize the Bible nowhere specifically addresses modern philosophical atheism but I don’t see it as some great bastion of free thinking. Is it merely lacking belief or an outright denial of the Truth and Light they have been exposed to? Tough questions. But I find it undeniable that following God would mean making changes a lot of people don’t want in their lives so they do their best impersonation of Jonah.

“To be happy"sounds more like modern, talk-show pop-philosophy to me than a well-reasoned, examination of life. I’d be much happier if I could legally carry my firearm to work with me. I m not so sure that is the same as spiritual joy though or that it is going to lead me to the most fulfilling and rewarding existence possible. Reliance on God is what is supposed to do that for the Christian. I suspect a lot of Christians would associate true happiness with being closer to God and while not completely shunning world happiness, recognize some sort of distinction between them. For many Christians it is unfathomable that a person could be truly happy without God. Though it seems like some believers are quite miserable themselves at times. In the end there is a spectrum. None of us accepts or rejects God in a vacuum and for me, to live a fulfilling and meaningful life under the golden rule is at least significantly how God intends us to, whether atheist or Christian. I think people can glimpse and follow the Divine in many forms. You don’t need to know the name of a road to travel down it. God is greater and bigger than any religion but " living the life they way they want to live” is most certainly un-Christian. We profess to follow a power higher than ourselves and follow His will. That is the only tally that ultimately matters.

Vinnie

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Not everyone who believes in God believes in God as defined by Christianity or its Bible.

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True, and we could make matters worse by pointing out how not all Christian’s are the same either. But this thread seems to be asking for Christian interpretations of Romans 1:20-21 and atheism. That is all I am offering.

From my perspective, other faiths don’t have God incarnate which is the central aspect of Christianity and the truest expression of His Love. So while they often contain true glimpses of the Divine and are quite valuable, they are not the truest or best image of God possible. A ducks gotta quack. A Christian has to preach Christ. God lowering Himself and being found as a human is a big deal. A Christian can’t help but see the divine condescension as the most pivotal event in the history of humankind and probably the universe itself. It’s the means God chooses for the salvation of His people and He commissions us tell others about it.

Vinnie

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I’ve always regarded that as rather shallow, since of those 3,999 most are derivative, i.e. they were created by some other being(s), which makes them just more parts of the universe.

That’s a large part of what Paul writes about in Romans 1; he’s talking about what the Christians there could see all around them.

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If it’s communication from the Designer, it isn’t an “agreed upon manner”, it’s the Creator-authorized manner.

People searching on their own rarely results in personal growth, it just results in building systems that make them happy.

Acknowledging that something is the communication from the Designer is acknowledging something greater!

All the evidence says there is no such capacity.

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And the vast majority of them are contingent beings. Certainly not ipsum esse like God. The irony is not lost on me though that a century after Paul, Justin Martyr had to defend Christians from the Roman charge of atheism!

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I agree that Ricky is an atheist. The joke was about how atheists reject 4,000 gods and Christians reject 3,999 of them. That Christians reject every God and don’t typically believe in gods like Zeus, Odin and so on, and so they reject them all except Yahweh/El.

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Trigger? A lie is a lie. Creationism is a lie. The claim that atheists really know there is a God, is a lie. I was not raised in such ignorance and so I know better. I believe God exists and I believe the Bible is the word of God. But… If the Bible is full of lies then I would throw it in the garbage. And if God is a liar, then I would be His enemy whether He exists or not. I have another name for the liar – the devil, and I will not worship him.

So?

This does not define atheism.

The majority of atheists say no such thing.

This would indeed be foolish because that is an impossible thing to know. And the vast majority of atheists know this so they do not say such a thing.

And I would be happier to know where you work so I can avoid the place.

Most people would be a great deal happier if they didn’t feel like they needed to bring a gun to work and they would be happier to know that other people were not bringing a gun to where they work either (unless that was part of their job description such as with security guards).

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I’m not sure you know the definition of a lie. A lie implies intent to deceive. Most creationists I know are incorrect and mistaken when it comes to science, not liars. Likewise, believers who think it is sin and wickedness that suppresses truth and leads to atheism think they are interpreting Romans 1:20-21 correctly. There is no need to vilify those with whom you disagree.

Some choose to formulate their philosophy as “lacking belief” but it doesn’t matter. Many may understand they can’t categorically state there is no God but most or all atheists do not believe Jesus was God incarnate. They do not believe in the God of the Bible. The God behind the Gospel message they receive and hear is rejected. In Christian thought then, these passages would still apply for a lot of exegetes. Redefining atheism does nothing to change hearing and not receiving the Gospel.

Which is exactly why I had problems with his statement.

Of course we would feel happier if we felt we didn’t need weapons to protect our family from home invasions or protect ourselves from mass shootings or crazy people. The majority of gun owners are law abiding citizens. But we don’t live in that world. “I was not raised in such ignorance and so I know better.”

And with what the police officers did (or didn’t do) in Florida and what they did (or didn’t do) in Texas during school shootings, sometimes a job description doesn’t correspond to reality or what actually happens in an extreme situation. The person I trust most to protect my family in a crisis is me. Not some stranger with a badge I never met with a well over 3 minute response time (most people who are going to die are already dead) where they may or may not enter the premises on arrival.

Vinnie

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For a long time I had things strategically placed by the doors of my house that could be used as weapons (ice axe, fireplace poker) because the neighborhood had taken a bad turn, and at times I went armed to answer my door just in case – all the while hoping the .357 wouldn’t be necessary.

One of our U.S. presidents commented about how we wouldn’t need not just arms but even laws if society was made of angels rather than men, but unfortunately we’re stuck with men.

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Ain’t that the truth.

I’m pretty much armed or my carry gun is very quickly reachable the vast majority of the time in my own home and we live in a nice neighborhood now. Home invasions happen anywhere. This one rocked a lot of my state at the time and changed some things.

The anti-gun crowd might try to irrationally score points by talking about “living in fear” but that is only because they aren’t gun people. Carrying is a natural as putting on shoes to me and I don’t do so out of “living in fear” anymore than I wear a seatbelt because I am “living in fear.” It’s just a normal preemptive safety measure that does not need to be justified or explained any more than wearing sunblock on the beach or a mask during the pandemic.

Vinnie

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Quote from a favorite movie “Contact.”

“Funny… I always believed the world is what we make of it.”

It may take standing up for what we believe and putting our lives on the line to do so. And since I don’t want to live in the world where everyone is carrying guns around to protect themselves and their family…

Don’t get me wrong. I am not a pacifist. And I root for the vigilante in most movies with them. But in most things I take a middle road. And in this case it is one where the vigilante is the exception not the rule – requiring that the vigilante also be ready and willing to pay the price that the law requires (not doing evil to prevent it anyway).

And of course… there are limits to the idea that the world is what we make of it. It requires some level of civilization. But post-apocalyptic worlds do not appeal to me… I don’t watch those movies. I am more interested in the efforts to prevent them from happening.

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Lie has more than one definition. One definition is “an untrue or inaccurate statement that may or may not be believed true by the speaker or writer.” Saying something is a lie is not the same as saying the person who said it is a liar. Just because you believe a lie doesn’t change the fact that it is a lie.

And frankly, since creationists resort to lying so much to support their belief, the implication is well deserved anyway.

That is not how I said it was defined. This is not a good definition either. My definition is that atheism requires a consideration of the question and deciding that there is no good reason for believing a God exists.

Sounds like an illusion to me. We can only choose what to do. We cannot control events or the future. That is why we trust in God. He likely will not make things happen the way we want either. We trust in God for our future with Him.

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An atheist cant call themselves an atheist if they do not know the definition of the term.

By definition an atheist says, “there is no God”

An agnostic claims to not know one way or tue other if God exists.

When we consider the second covenant given to us by Jeremiah 31:33

This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the LORD. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

We see that God has written His law of love on our hearts. The holy spirit is thst still small voice we know as our conscience. He speaks to us all…everyone, not just Christians.

The unpardonable sin is also a sin of conscience against the whisperings of the Holy Spirit…denying Him.

An atheist knows of God because they have made a binary choice to claim “God doesnt exist”

I think that is different from a person who has genuinely never heard of or been exposed to any notion of God. These individuals are judged only according to their conscience…their sense of humanity. Remember Christ told us, do good unto others, love those who persecute you. He also said help, feed and clothe the poor.

This question highlights exactly why salvation is not a spiritual only journey…the fruits of our humility are also on trial…and this is an example of where that applies and why!

We cannot actively save ourselves, but our outward works define what is inside of each or us. We want to be kind because we are Godly…we are not Godly because we are kind to others (there is a distinction there).
Those who think they can earn Godliness by their works are publicity seekers…extrinsicially motivated self absorbed individuals who will not enter heaven.

From the above, i suggest that a very large number of atheists are not really atheist, they are simply lazy and they will be judged accordingly (see Christs parable of the talents Matthew 25)…how can a person be in the negative if they do not know anything about the opposing sides of the choice they have made?

The above is my position as a YEC, even though this question does not have to be a YEC vs TEism issue as such.

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Incorrect. Agnosticism is simply about what can be known, not a separate position on the question of God’s existence.

agnostic: a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena;

There are agnostic atheists and even agnostic theists. Most atheists are agnostic atheists. And there are a few agnostic theists – those who choose to believe God exists but are well aware that objective knowledge of the existence of God is impossible.

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[quote="mitchellmckain, post:55, topic:352

Well, you can imagine an armed intruder has a water gun or the bullets inside their gun are marshmallows if you want. Let me know how that works out for you. I can tell you it didn’t work out well for anyone in Sandy Hook when Adam Lanza shot and killed 20 children between 6-7 years of age.

Exactly. I stand up for my right to defend my family and will put my life on the line for that over and over again. Give me liberty or give me death. I also doubt anyone wants to live in a world where we feel compelled to carry a firearm for personal safety. It would be nice if we lived in a utopia without the need for a military, police officers, laws or home defense. We don’t live in that world. At least I don’t. I live in the real world.

It’s the same thing. Atheists of that variety lack belief because there is no reason compelling them otherwise. It’s the same for the Invisible Pink Unicorn. Nowhere does this imply atheists have never considered the question or listened to contrary opinions and evidence. They find them wanting and / or inconsistent. It’s a flashy way of not categorically denying any and all gods or God. But at the end did the day, most flatly reject the Biblical portrait so as I noted, your defense of atheism was found wanting.

Shots fired. Pew pew. And I thought you were anti-gun.

An illusion? Simple preemptive safety measures to protect my family is me choosing what to do. Is wearing a seatbelt an illusion to you? Wearing a mask? Is a vaccine an illusion?

Of course I trust in God. That doesn’t mean I will forego a surgery or throw myself off a building because I think the angels will protect me. Jesus didn’t even do that. Trusting God instills me to live properly, not to behave recklessly. It also encourages me to respect and appreciate life and protect my loved ones from the evil people who would do them harm.

Vinnie

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Early in my time here someone asserted that all atheists are aware that God is real and they’re just running from Him. In response I posted about some atheists I knew who actually wanted to believe that God is real but couldn’t see sufficient evidence.
The sad thing to me was that they were mostly as stuck on reading Genesis wrongly as the YECists who were so good at driving people away.

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Yes, how Christianity is presented can be a stumbling block. But here is a theological question I personally don’t know the answer to. If a person is genuinely seeking God will they not find him through the maze somehow in time? Or no? And if not the natural question is why? Why does God not interact with a person genuinely seeking Him?

Vinnie