Does Morality come from God, Evolution or both?

Well, I am confused. I just got through explaining that objective doesn’t equal authentic or true, and now you are trying to make an equivalence between these in something vaguely remembered. If you want to talk about something I said then find an actual quote. Could be I made mistake, my concession in such cases are a matter of record. But this doesn’t sound like one to me.

Since I just got through saying this doesn’t describe the God of any religions then why are talking as if I said otherwise?

There is only One God.

Wouldn’t need to do that, I imagine we could clarify the concept or terms easily enough right here:

I am a traditional Calvinist, and my subjective experience tells me that God is immutable.

Is my subjective experience wrong?

That is certainly not the type of statement (declaration of belief) I am likely to say is incorrect – just give my own view on the issue for comparison.

I am not a tiny bit Calvinist (rejecting all 5 of TULIP). But I disagree with a considerable portion of Arminianism as well. And what I read of God in the Bible doesn’t sound immutable (in the usual common language sense of the word) to me… which is not to say there isn’t some sense of the word which I would agree applies to God. Constant in His purpose, to be sure, unchanging in His love and integrity as well. But what I see described in the Bible is God who still has regrets and can change His mind about things. Back in the time of Calvin there was still this notion of absolute time which science has since abandoned. As a result there is no longer this black and white choice between being subject to time as we are and being without any kind of time at all. God can employ time all His own as He chooses.

I am reminded of a discussion on this forum not so long ago, in which this idea of God being simple was explained in a way that I agreed to, even though before this I as adamant in my refutation of that description.

That description of divine simplicity which I agreed with was “there is nothing which is not God which makes God be God.” But then… I would say this about God not being composite rather than being simple.

As it agrees with rationality, not in this case.

Does Morality come from God, Evolution, or bth?

I would say that the best answer to that question is both, but you must first define what you mean by morality. and evolution.

Most people think they know what morality is, the 10 Commandments, right? However for Christians the Decalogue does not define our morality. That is the OT legalistic morality the Jesus and Paul overthrew. Christian morality is based on the two Great commandments, Love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and love others as you love yourself. This is our God given morality, which is not absolute, because it is based on Love which is relational.

The morality of evolution as understood by Darwin and Dawkins is Survival of the Fittest. It is self interest in the struggle for existence. For them that is the way of the world. “Enlightened” self interest may be a step forward, but it is still selfishness. That is why, along with its scientific failure, Darwinian natural selection is wrong.

On the other hand symbiosis or ecological selection us not based on struggle and conflict between members of a species. It is based on the ability to adapt to the environment so that all might receive the maximum benefit. It is based on mutual interdependence, mu evolution as the Kingdom of God is.

I would say that the God aspect of morality is Love, while the evolutionary part, which is created by God, is the context or environment in which we live and love and must play an important part in how we best relate to one another.

Both Dawkins and you are mistaken. Someone asked me what evidence is there that the universe is not indifferent to life. The answer: We are here. There is no way humans could exist if the universe were indifferent of our existence. There is every evidence that our universe is designed for humans and other current forms of life.

1 Peter 4:8 (NIV2011)
8 Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.
“Love covers up a multitude of sins.”

Jesus is the Logos of morality and ecology.

There is doubt as to whether this was written by St Peter. First Epistle of Peter - Wikipedia. It could have been written by Paul.
It sounds sus to me. " Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins." Who is each other? Does that mean love all and sundries? Love the inhumane and thus it covers over their sins or more like horrible transgressions? This does not sound like morality to me. One should love those who are humane and stand against and expose the enemy, those who are inhumane and against Justice/ Righteousness.

Members of the “household of faith.” In times of persecution members of the household of faith sometimes succumb to pressure and do things that they should not. That is why there was the Donatist controversy.

I hadn’t heard of the Donatists so I tried to read up on it and it looks to me more political than anything else. There are always going to be differences but these are often exploited by people, who enter the religion, but whose intention is not honorable. They seek to cause problems for the sake of power mostly. So the “household of faith” has different facets. Some are humane and some inhumane. You can’t love someone who is inhumane.

I was very nearly molested by a Greek Orthodox priest as a child of around 8 years old. This was in his office with others present. I was standing next to him. He was seated at his desk and while talking to a crowd of others in his office he tried to run his hand up my leg and under my dress. I quickly moved away and said aloud “bad man” or “his a bad man” I can’t recall exactly. It created a schism right there. Some may have seen enough to be wondering what was happening. Others were oblivious. Some wanted to show they were “faithful” and thus on the priests side. Others were willing to look at both sides. Still others, who had some previous problem with the priest, were angry. These is no way one can love the priest or anyone who might support him in being a pedophile.

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Dear Ani,
Thank you so much for sharing. You have my deepest sympathies. I agree those who molest children are evil. But we might also think of them as sick, which is not to make an excuse for their behavior. If you are sick and that sickness harms people, you need to acknowledge the sickness and get help. People are responsible for what they do

You ar4e not responsible for what happened to you and how people reacted to it. There is no one to blame, but the priest. They parish needed God’s love to remove the priest and be reconciled with each other.

My understanding of the Donatist controversy in North Africa was that persecuting Roman authorities put much pressure on Christian priests to renounce their faith and some submitted. After the persecution ended some of these confessed their sin and asked to be reinstated and many were. The Donatists refused to recognize them as clergy and to accept the validity of the churches they administered.

The priest who attacked you was dead wrong and does not deserve your forgiveness and your love, but that is not the issue. Speaking for myself I have more than once been dead wrong and for that reason do not deserve God’s forgiveness and God’s love, still God loved and forgave me even before I repented and became a Christian.

Jesus calls us to love and forgive this inhuman person, not because he is good, but because he is a child of God, loved by God. God calls us to love him, because the4 alternative is to hate him and hate hurts and cripples us more than its object. God knows that hate does not help or solve anything.

We are challenged to love others because we need to be the best we can be, not because everyone deserves love.

Love seeks to help those who are evil to become good, for those who are sick to become well, but first they must confess that they are evil and sick. Punishment might be needed if they do not confess their sin and control their urges, but punishment does not cure… You do not put people who have a weakness in positions where they are tempted and people are not aware of their weaknesses. . .

I was going to say I got my morality from a box of crackerjacks but I think I’ll save that for the humor thread.

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Crackerjack morality is total nonsense and completely unjustifiable. TRUE morality come from Fortune Cookies … :wink:

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With the larger point being that treating morality as an object is a bad fit. It is one of those spontaneous things which flow from who we are like our identity/soul. There are some things that are too essential to stand back from and describe dispassionately. And it isn’t simple obedience either. One doesn’t morally improve a child by instilling obedience. Rather it is something you cultivate by drawing out what is already there.

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Spoilsport! (I should have waited for a humor thread) :wink:

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“The best we can be” meaning what? That doesn’t make sense to me.
You can’t make evil good. Evil people are basically inhumane, i.e., they have a dead conscience and no empathy / no love. They are effectively spiritually dead.
You are not going to get a person who has no conscience to confess to being evil/ inhumane. Won’t happen ever. And they are NOT sick. This is the message we get from psychiatrists who have an agenda. If there were no inhumane people, then there would be no disease, and I would go so far as to say no mental or physical disease for all of the main diseases at least. Psychiatrists are gatekeepers for the pharmaceutical industry.
This is how they test and claim brain variations from what they call neurotypicals. They put the subjects in a scanner to see their brain images and then show them distressing images. If the person has no reaction then they claim the amygdala are underdeveloped or not functioning as normal. Fiddle sticks. The inhumane person has two choices. No reaction… i.e., who cares! OR to have a laugh from the pleasure of seeing some picture of someone in distress or injured etc. Of course they won’t want to show themselves so they choose the “no reaction” approach. And I don’t think this is missed on psychiatrist because most of them are inhumane. Consider they trash the person’s life issues (the NIH in the USA is screaming about it), then they made up the science. The chemical imbalances in the brain causes mental illness theory was plucked out of thin air. AND then they go on to diagnose and prescribe chemical sledgehammers on the basis of the fiction. Could you do that with a conscience? No.

There is no cure for the evil/ inhumane people. I think Mohammad was right. You have a right to stand against the evil doers and fight for your rights and life and that of your loved ones if need be. Let me give you and example and point to the significance for people’s right to survival.
Greece was occupied by Germany in WW2. The Germans were brutal and caused a lot of harm and famine. The Greeks needed to survive as was their right. Loving the Germans and hoping they would turn good wasn’t going to cut it. So what did they do? Terrorism in a word.
A whole family in each case was involved. They got explosive powerdered up their home and then stole a couple of weapons from German camps most likely and then one of the family (and we are talking extended families here) anyway one member of the family would go to the German camp and say “see that house there, they are stocking up weapons. There is going to be a rebellion.” The Germans would take the person with them and go to the house. They would send one or two Germans in to search and of course they found the two poorly hidden weapons in the front room. The Germans in the house wave in the other Germans, maybe another 5 or 6 and then search the house. Once all the Germans were inside the house the Greeks lit the fuse for the explosive and the whole house blew up killing everyone.
In retaliation the Germans would kill Greeks. Say 8 Germans died. They went and took eight people at random out of 8 houses on one side and the same on the other side of the demolished house. Lined them up before a firing squad and shot them. This though worked for the Greeks. How you might ask? Upholding morale in the face of disaster and famine and disease etc., is what helps a people survive. So the Greeks could run around among themselves saying “we killed eight German today” or “we killed 6 Germans last week” etc. This went on month after month. The Germans lost soldiers in this way right throughout the German occupation of Greece. This is terrorism plain and simple and not by one lone terrorist but whole families each time. The Greeks though survived by upholding their morale. And to this day they are eulogized in Greek churches all over the world as martyr for Christendom.
You can only love those who are humane. You can’t love anyone inhumane. And the main reason is that to become inhumane the person deadens their conscience deliberately. They cross an abyss from whence there is no return. Jesus was crucified for sedition. His death does not ressurrect the inhumane. The spiritual connection to others, which is what love is fundamentally is already broken when they deaden their conscience to treat other like objects, to abuse, use, exploit etc. You can’t love a disconnected dark soul.
God does not love evil people. Evidence. God cast Satan out of Heaven for being evil. If he loved him why kick him out?

Hello Noah,
I’ve been following this thread for about two weeks now (though there are way too many replies for me to read them all!). Since you asked this question weeks ago – I’m late to the party – it may have been answered to your satisfaction already. But I’d still like to offer some thoughts. I know this is a bit lengthy; hopefully you find it thorough rather than just verbose. :slight_smile:

(Side comment: my discussion below assumes, along with the BioLogos Forum expectations, orthodox Christian faith. In particular, I assume the truth of the Bible and its authority in our lives. In fact, I think the Bible ought to be foundational, rather than our beliefs sitting in the judge’s seat over Biblical teaching. For clarity of the discussion’s progression, I sometimes structure my comments in a way that may seem like we arrive at our beliefs first and Scripture is just supplemental, though that isn’t the “direction” I think it should go. I realize these are debated issues and require greater elaboration, but they are probably best handled elsewhere if they are “hang-ups.”)

I think there are actually multiple questions in your original post which, though related, are best treated separately. The ones I see are:

  1. whether or not (human) morality is objective;
  2. the ultimate source of morality;
  3. the immediate source of morality, including the mechanism(s) by which humans come to know morality (evolution, a direct divine impartation, etc.). This could also include the question about morality being unique to humans or not;
  4. a broader theme of reconciling evolution and Christian faith.

Each of these questions demand lengthier answers than is practical here. Many replies have already given various viewpoints, so my words here, at times echoing some of the previous replies, may seem like oversimplifications. If so, we could follow up on the “holes.” Anyway, here we go…

On #1: It would be useful to start by ensuring that we mean the same thing when we use the keyword “objective.” I think a good working definition is this: morality would be objective if it is defined by something (or someone!) entirely independent of and external to human existence and human purview. This seems to me to be what is most often meant when someone calls morality “objective” (I don’t think I’m playing artificial semantic games here), but I’m open to improvements to my definition. One implication of an objective morality, in this sense, would be that humanity could not take credit for “inventing” morality.

Anyhow, assuming for now that you accept my definition, the real question is whether or not morality is indeed objective. I think there are many Biblical principles which teach us that, at its core, the answer is yes; specifically, it is defined by God, who is in no way dependent on anything in the universe (His “divine aseity”). I think it would be difficult to take the Bible as a whole and conclude otherwise. But I am not so naïve as to think that no one has tried! :slight_smile: So, consider the book of Leviticus, which gives the Law, most certainly told to us to be from God, and equates keeping that Law with holiness – essentially a state of moral perfection (of course, we can’t achieve holiness on our own, which is why we need Jesus’ righteousness imputed to us in order to be reconciled to God). Variations of the command for people to “be holy for I am [God is] holy” appear several times in that book. Thus, human holiness is defined in terms of the holiness of God, and therefore all human morality would be defined by Him. (Side comment: the question of whether that holiness is defined directly by God’s nature or whether it is defined by His commands to us need not be answered to accept this latter conclusion; in both cases, it would still be correct to say that holiness, and thus morality, is defined by Him).

On #2: My comments on #1 have now partially answered this already. I’ll echo again that human understanding of morality can ultimately be traced back to God, though perhaps after some number of intermediate steps (which gets at #3). While on the topic, let me add some more Scripture. For example, in Jeremiah 31:33, God says He will put His law in the minds of the people of Israel and write it on their hearts, so He is given credit for His people knowing (understanding) His Law, and, in light of #1, morality. And in Micah 6:8, God is the one who shows us mortals what is good. Psalm 119 speaks clearly about the Law (again a proxy for morality) belonging to God, calling it righteous and eternal – see verse 160 for example – among other laudable superlatives. God is the source of morality, and again because of His divine aseity, He must be the ultimate source. (One implication: we dare not make light of the importance of morality in our own lives, as some are wont to do, since it is ultimately from God and isn’t merely a human construct.)

On #3: Well, in short, I don’t know. But I think it can have multiple answers at different levels of a “local/global” distinction. Following my comments on #2, God must be sovereign over the whole enterprise – “globally” – or else we would run into the problem of either contradicting Biblical teaching or even having no basis for objective morals at all (I haven’t argued that latter point here, though I do believe it). But the immediate – “local” – explanation for how a particular person has come to know morality might possibly be some mechanism (like a physical process) that, on its surface, seems to be independent of God. How could both be true? I’ve heard John Lennox give a good analogy which I will paraphrase and hijack for my purposes here (he was talking about different meanings of the word “why,” I think, so it wasn’t quite our context, but the point still applies). Imagine you walk into my kitchen to see a tea kettle on the stove with water boiling in it. You could ask why the water is boiling. The “local” reason has to do with the heat transferred into the water from the kettle, which itself comes from the stove, which itself comes from…and so on. But the “global” reason (overseeing the other steps in the process) is simply that I would like some tea! Both explanations are correct as far as they go. My point here, as some have said above, is that our morals ultimately coming from God doesn’t preclude them from coming from a seemingly different source simultaneously. This doesn’t exactly answer #3, but it seems to at least get it inside a more manageably sized fence. :slight_smile:

On #4: As I am less knowledgeable about evolution than many/most on this forum, I will only say that I believe such a reconciliation is possible, and I hope you don’t give up on finding one if that topic irks you.

Now, with all of that said, I have a few more general thoughts that I’ve been returning to as I reflected on this thread; they’re based more on the second half of your post. I preface this by asking you to read it as intended; it could appear like a “dodge,” especially over this somewhat impersonal medium, but I definitely do not mean it that way. I intend it sincerely, at face value.

Anyway, the main thought is basically the “practical response” that one could give to any question: if you could find a definitive answer to your original question, a surefire and incontrovertible resolution, what would it change in your day-to-day life or in your faith journey? If, in particular, evolution is simply a tool in God’s hands, then, speaking for myself, I think an answer would change virtually nothing in my life. It certainly wouldn’t affect my moral choices (since the question isn’t about what constitutes correct morality; rather, it’s about where morality comes from and how we come to know it), and would have only minimal impact on my internal view of morality (since, given the discussion above, I am already convinced of the ultimate source and standard of morality coming from God, then understanding how it “trickles down” to me has much less practical impact). And, again speaking for myself, if it would change so little, then it wouldn’t be of primary importance to me.

I wanted to bring this point up only because you said your question bothers you to an extreme. Of course I don’t say this to dismiss your question; it’s worthwhile to discuss, particularly if you sincerely find that it bothers you. If all truth belongs to God, as I believe it does, then we ought not shy away from asking honest questions, and I don’t believe God discourages such honest questions (asking questions as veiled challenges is another matter, but I see no reason to think that that is what you are doing!). Indeed, many on this forum have expressed their frustration, even to the point of damaging their faith, with past experiences of their questions which were dismissed with perfunctory “answers” or without any discussion at all – I’m in no way advocating for such a dismissal of the questions in your post. I just think it’s important to distinguish between things that are primary and secondary (and tertiary and beyond). Since I find this particular topic secondary or lower, I encourage you to reflect honestly on the question of what difference an answer would make, especially considering the possibility that an irrefutable answer might be out of humanity’s reach. Perhaps doing so would lessen the question’s urgency in your mind. And actually, if you’re still reading at this point, I’d be curious to hear from you, if you’re willing to share, what specifically about this question is bothering you. I’m wondering if you can identify why it bothers you to the extreme.

By the way, more generally I think that asking yourself metacognitive questions like this one (the “why do I care?” or “what difference would it make?” kind of questions) is tremendously useful in exposing presuppositions, assumptions, or motives that you might not even have known were there. What about “Issue X” stirs you more than other questions of faith and science? Do you find that you want a particular answer to be true? That can reveal something about your presuppositions (we all have them; I think that “unbiased neutrality” isn’t possible in these matters for an actual human, but that is another topic) and might impact which questions you ascribe more or less importance to. In fact, I see you’re already self-aware enough to do this, as you recognized that, in this case, your question came from an “impulsive skeptic” side of you. I’d be interested to hear more about what precisely you mean by that. Either way, considering more deeply the source of this (or any) question will be worth your time, in my opinion.

Regardless, I hope you’re able to find an answer that satisfies you and, most importantly, draws you closer to Christ, thinking more of His thoughts after Him. In the meantime, keep asking questions, and keep “seeking first His Kingdom and His righteousness” (Matthew 6:33).

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Please feel free to ignore this post - it is me summarising the excellent discussion here via the key points that have resonated with me personally from posts 1-40. I intend to do the same for the rest of the discussion, and may then add some thoughts of my own. This would be one of the most interestingly poignant discussions I have seen in BioLogos and a good example of why this movement carries a lot of value - to try and really hammer out the big questions of life in an open, free for all way

[quote=“Daniel_Fisher, post:33, topic:43464”]
For any who agree there is a transcendent morality, one which we recognize in our own internal conscience, the law of God being written in our hearts… how did his law get there, given that we are the product of a process that could have instilled in us no categorical difference between instincts toward altruism and xenophobia

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Well said, I personally like that terminology, though sometimes the word causes confusion as “objective” can also imply “detached” or “disinterested” or the like, so I sometimes also add the word “absolute” for more clarity.

But i also like your clarifying question about whether we humans can “take credit for ‘inventing’ morality.”

In other words, was morality a scheme that we humans invented (such as designating red mean “stop” and green to mean “go”)…

or is morality something that we humans discovered, more akin to the multiplication table.

If the former, then there is nothing inherently “wrong” or “right” inherent in it. we invented it, we could have made it different, and there is nothing outside us that says we would be wrong if we had made it differently.

But if the latter, then we would be wrong if our multiplication table said that 3x3 were 6. Principles of math are not for us to discover, not to invent.

And every atheist I have ever read wants desperately to affirm that morality is something we invented, because they recognize the implication of the idea of a moral standard external to us as humans…

But the morality they actually believe in, speak about, and defend is clearly one that recognizes that certain actions are inherently, objectively, or absolutely right or wrong.

That really only kicks the can down the road. If God subjectively decided what is and isn’t moral then it is still a subjective morality. How could we know if God is deriving morality from an objective standard separate from God? Merely obeying a list of commandments does not make a moral code objective.

The first question would be “Whose God?”. Many cultures claim to have received morality from a deity, and yet those moral codes contradict one another. Those cultures all claim that their moral codes are objective, yet they disagree with the alleged objective morality in other cultures. So which one is right? Are any of them right?

From what I can see, morality doesn’t make sense outside of the human experience. A subjective morality is a much better moral system than a claimed objective one. Why is a subjective morality better? Because it is based on what humans find to be the most important in their lives. If a deity commands us to go against our own sense of morality then what good is an objective morality? If a deity orders us to kill children and commit genocide then why should we follow this alleged objective morality?

Some fascinating points of argument raised between Post 40-100. Bear with me here - I’m almost done. For those engaged in this discussion, take it as a compliment how interesting and educative/helpful I find reading it all.