Do humans have a non-physical soul? (And how does modern science affect the question?)

Ok, I’ll jump in.

I think we will have to speak of being souls, rather than “having” souls. The latter gives the impression that we are beings that are not souls, but rather have souls. Those entities are presumably not bodies either, because if they were we would be equating ourselves with our bodies and then positing a non-physical soul that we happen to have. But no one wants to do that. There are a few Christians who do want to say that we are wholly material beings (I’m not one of them), but the whole point of that is to avoid having to posit anything non-physical that we are or have. So it makes much more sense to say that the view we’re considering here is that we humans are non-physical souls that have bodies closely associated with them.

Some Christians like to distinguish between mind and spirit and soul (and the body is yet a 4th thing). Maybe there is a distinction to be made here, but let’s not get into that. Whatever trouble might be forthcoming as a result of evolutionary biology, it will concern the existence of any non-physical thing. If there is trouble for one such non-physical thing there will be trouble for two or three of them, and likewise if there is no trouble. So let’s just talk about one non-physical thing, call it a “soul,” and then say it is the entity that can be aware of things, have beliefs and desires and affections, can reason and deliberate, can experience sensations, have memories, etc. That way “mind” and “spirit” become aspects of the “soul,” but are not distinct entities. And a soul does seem to be what we take ourselves to be.

I do not understand how anyone can claim that we have no reason to think that we are souls. The mere fact that the majority of human beings have thought so should give us some reason. But perhaps they mean only that we cannot empirically verify that we are souls, or that what people have thought for centuries has been obviously defeated by recent empirical investigation. So we need an argument to think there are souls that is not obviously defeated by recent empirical investigation. Ok, here’s one (and it’s not new):

  1. The fundamental constituents of matter lack the capacity for consciousness. (Actually, they lack all the capacities ascribed above to souls, but for simplicity’s sake we may limit ourselves to talking about “consciousness.” But the list obviously includes more than just the capacity to “be aware.”)

  2. Anything that is composed exclusively of things that lack the capacity for consciousness, likewise lacks the capacity for consciousness.

  3. All “physical things” are composed exclusively of the fundamental constituents of matter. (This includes our bodies, and all parts of our bodies, which in turn includes our brains.) This is merely a reasonable definition of “physical thing.”

Therefore, 4. All physical things lack the capacity for consciousness. (This follows from 1, 2 and 3.)

Five (5). Humans have the capacity for consciousness.

Therefore, 6. Humans are non-physical things (i.e., souls). (This follows from 4 and 5.)

I do not take this argument to prove to all reasonable people that humans are souls. Recall that this is a response to the claim that we have no reason to think there are souls. So it is intended only to supply a good reason, even today, to think there are souls. I am not claiming that the argument cannot be defeated by further inquiry. I am saying only that the argument is reasonable on its face, i.e., it is prima facie reasonable. However, to defeat it, one must deny either 1 or 2. [3 is clearly a reasonable definition, and 5 is an undeniable fact of experience. And the argument is clearly valid. So anyone who remains unpersuaded must think that either 1 or 2 (or both) is false.] The bulk of the scrutiny will center on 2, but some people are pan-psychists who will deny 1. Regardless, it should be clear that we all have some reason to think there are souls. That’s because 2 seems very hard to deny. How can anything conscious ever be composed exclusively of non-conscious things? Some properties can indeed “emerge” when parts that don’t have the property compose a whole that does have it (sphericity, for example). But consciousness does not look like one of those potentially “emergent” properties at all. The burden of proof is on those who say that consciousness can thus “emerge.” And this is the problem that psychologists and philosophers of mind have called “the hard problem of consciousness.” It has not yet been solved. The burden of proof has not yet been met. Piling up correlations (as neuro-scientists have certainly done much of lately) between physical and mental events is not sufficient to solve the problem. We can still ask what the relationship is between mental events and their physical correlates, without equating the mental with the physical. (The Cartesian intuition cannot be glibly cast aside merely on the basis of correlations.) So we have some reason to think there are souls. There is no more room for saying we have no such reason.

Finally, I wouldn’t mind it at all if someone could show that something non-physical could “emerge” from a suitably sophisticated arrangement of matter. That would solve the problem very neatly, and it would allow for the possibility of this non-physical thing to survive the dissolution of the matter from which it emerged. And it would solve the problem not only in the evolutionary case of souls emerging in animals whose ancestors were not souls, but also in the parallel case of physical embryos that somehow “generate” souls at some (hard-to-define) point in their development. The evolutionary problem seems to me to be the same as the embryonic problem. If we can solve one, we’ll solve the other.

I don’t have a solution though. Sorry. (But I still think #2 above is true.)

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@John_T_Mullen

John,

You are right. Information is not physical, and brains that process information are not doing physical work, but non-physical work. If the human brain is the seat of the mind or soul, it is non-material because what it does is non-material.

Other animals are able to process information and our conscious minds evolved from them according to God’s purpose and plan. You are right, the answer is not “emergence,” but ecological evolution as some scientists are discovering.

Humans are created in God’s triune Image as body, mind, and spirit through the Logos and the Spirit through ecological evolution.

I have a suggestion and I would like everyone to consider it. As we probably can guess, time and eternity are not the same. There are Scriptures that seem to indicate that we have an eternal spirit. This can even be seen in I Samuel 28; however, there are New Testament Scriptures that seem to say that there is an instantaneous resurrection due to the fact that time and eternity are not the same. When we die, we find ourselves at the Last Judgment and the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus. II Corinthians 5:1-10, Colossians 3:1-4 and Revelation 7: 9-17 seem to show this view. I respect each and everyone of you. I hope you will consider my suggestion even if you disagree. May our Lord Jesus bless each and one of you.

Your friend,

Henry Wynns, BA, Old Dominion University; MAR, Liberty University School of Divinity

In my dissertation on Soren Kierkegaard in his 19th century context, I am addressing the question of immortality of the soul. Kierkegaard is not interested in arguments for immortality. He notices that the more they argue about the less concerned they are with the consequences if it is true. So his “argument” is “Your are immortal. And immortality is judgment.” Similar statements can be found in John Henry Newman in England and Charles Finney in the U.S.

What I am discovering is that at least in the nineteenth century “immortality of the soul” was almost used as a synonym for or at least a close parallel to the more biblical sounding doctrines of resurrection and judgment.

Moreover, it is clear at least in Newman and Kierkegaard that they reject the Greek concept (especially the pre-existence of the soul in Plato) for a Christian doctrine which is rooted in the resurrection of Jesus and the implications that follow from it. Or to put it in terms of Church tradition it is rooted in The Apostle’s Creed.

So, as we see this phrase in Christian authors, we must be careful not to read a simple adoption of Greek notions of “the soul” into their use of the term.

Ian Panth MCS
Doctoral Candidate
Religion Dept.
Baylor University

Eddie,

Thank you for your response. I did not say that these views should be taken as normative. My point was that Christians use these terms in different ways. So, we must be careful to see how a particular theologian is using a term or phrase in his or her particular context. Yet often when immortality of the soul is discussed it is seen as the “unfortunate” Hellenization of Christianity. In Newman and Kierkegaard, they definitely use this phrase but they clearly distinguish from Greek conceptions. Nowhere, in the above, do I suggest that either of these authors would deny a interim spiritual existence before resurrection. Kierkegaard is likely silent on such speculation. Yet, for both of them, it must be understood within the narrative of resurrection and judgment.

In doing so, they are denying a couple of nineteenth century ideas such that immortality really refers to the continuance of the human race i.e. Feuerbach and Left Hegelians. The other notion is that death is a mere transition to “eternal life” or “heaven.” No they say, first death, then resurrection, then judgment. Both authors are living in Christendom and noting that being born in England or Denmark respectively does not = eternal life.

I am not one who thinks that we must de-hellenize everything. I think that is just as much a prejudice as the efforts do-judaize everything. In this respect, I think it is very important to note where these theologians themselves point out differences between their thoughts and the thoughts of the Greek philosophers.

I do not see anything in your response with which I would strongly take issue.

Ian

@Henry, Welcome.
@Ian_Panth and @Eddie

Henry, thank you for “waking up” this blog. There seems to be two strains of thought in Paul concerning what happens when we die. The first is based on Jewish thinking which says human are indeed dead in the grave until the Day of Resurrection when all are resurrected, judged, and assigned to heaven or hell.

The other strain was stated by Paul in 2 Cor 5:1-10 as absent from the body, home with the Lord Jesus. This seems to indicate complete continuity between our personhood between life and death without the gap of death.

What Henry is saying and I agree is that there is no real difference between these two scenarios, because death is without time. As I think Paul would say, death is like sleep where we are not aware of time or anything else.

God can wake us up whenever God chooses by reuniting our minds, spirits, and resurrection bodies and we are ready to go. I think that our body, mind, and spirit reside in God until that time when there is a “gap,” rather in an separate, immortal by nature “soul.”

Eternity is not based on the length of time. Eternity is a condition, Good if one is in heaven with God. Bad if one is in hell under the power of Evil.

Now the immortal soul comes into play, as Eddie indicated, when Greeks began to ask what happens to the person after death and between the resurrection before persons are united with their resurrected body? They came up with the idea of the immortal soul from the Greeks. just as Paul came up with Resurrection Day from the Jews…

I do not think that this is a good idea because 1) It leads and enforces the dualistic Western anthropology of body and soul, which is basically flawed, 2) It makes eternal life independent of God, and dependent on anthropology, and 3) It denies the relational basis of eternal life.

Evolution would be a much less of a problem for conservative Christianity if it did not have the Greek understanding of the soul to defend.

We cannot really say what happens when we die, Paul is right, we live by faith, and not by sight. 2 Cor 5:7. We trust that God in God’s love, justice, and wisdom will work things out for all and leave the details to God. For the Christian that means absent from the body, home with Jesus Christ. We can’t miss with God.

I wish to say that it is truly a pleasure to talk with such fine scholars. It is not very often to find such a fine blog as this. I became over the years interested in time after reading W. D. Davies and Dr. Frank Stagg of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. Emil Brunner in his “Eternal Hope” also gave me some interest in this concept of time and eternity. I was with my wife one day in a restaurant looking out of a window and considering the end and the border of our universe. Did God make even a larger creation than ours? Are atoms simply fractals of a larger universe? The structure of atoms does resemble our solar system or smaller universes. An example of time and eternity would be this: What would happen if we were to face two mirrors to each other? It would show an example of infinity. Did God create all time that will ever exist at the Big Bang? I believe it is possible. Every moment that will be has already been. How many times have I used this blog? For me, it is the second time; however, in the mind of our Lord it has been many times. It only seems to be the first time for us. I thought of this when I was reading Charles Dickens’ “A Christmas Carol.” Scrooge said to the ghost of Christmas future: are these the shadows of things that could be or are these the things that shall be? The ghost did not answer. This sets up a problem and a discussion between Arminians and Calvinists. It may look at time this way in the mind of God. Let us say that we have a set of children’s building blocks. We set them up one upon another. This represents the corridor of time. The bottom is the past, the middle the present and the top is the future. Only to us! God has seen every moment of our existence since the beginning of time. We may have lived this very moment millions of times. God already sees the Second Coming. The ones who are with God in eternity are revealed with Jesus in this line of building blocks. Colossians 3:1-4 seems to indicate this. Let us say that God decides to destroy time. He could remove the bottom building block and everything would come to an end due to the fall of the building blocks. God does not do this because he is merciful and loving. Even though I am an Arminian who believes in the eternal security of the believer, this does sound like Calvinism, doesn’t it? This is one of the mysteries of faith. I am no liberal in theology or philosophy; however, there are some things for which this is no answer this side of heaven. It is true that I Samuel 28 seems to say that we have a spirit that survives the death of the body until the resurrection; however, remember that the Bible is a progressive revelation. Therefore, ideas of eternal life may grow as God reveals more to us. This goes for theology, philosophy as well as science. It has been a pleasure to participate with each of you. May God bless all of you. Perhaps I have brought up things worthy of discussion. I must go now. Henry Wynns

@Eddie wrote:

Truer words were never spoken.

First of all we must remember that the concept of “the immortal soul” is indeed a Greek philosophical concept. Also it was accepted by many pagans in the ancient world at the time of Jesus. Also we can say when and where it came from, which is the Death of Socrates in 400 BC as recorded by Plato in the Phaedo.

Thus while many atheists claim that Christianity is contrary to Reason, in terms of eternal life based on philosophy preceded Christianity and was supplemented by it. Thus is probably why New Atheism rejects both rational philosophy and theology, Reason and God.

However Paul the Jew did not incorporate the immortal soul into his theology. He uses the word “spirit” when he might have used soul. He talks about Jewish style resurrection of people rather than the continuation of the soul. He defends to the last the resurrection body as opposed to the immortal soul. Many modern Christians today reject the concept of eternal life with the body, saying that eternal life is only the eternal life of the soul.

What I did point to is that Paul’s view of absent from the body means present with the resurrected Jesus Christ suggests a more Greek view which is not attached to the general resurrection and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. Henry’s view is in part a bridge between the two.

I like Paul’s view of being present with Jesus Christ after death without having to “wait” for the Second Coming and the General Resurrection, but we need to maintain the Christian emphasis on judgement and the eternal existence of the body. The Socratic concept of the immortal soul does not do this.

I wish the only problem that conservative Christians have with Darwinism is the sovereignty of God. Apparently that is Eddie’s problem. Alas it is not the primary problem for others. How can nature create immortal souls?

Good Morning, my friends,

I hope you have had a wonderful Sunday. Except for the rain, Nancy and I had a grand day. I like my friend from Baylor’s comments. I do not disagree with them. I used 2 Corinthians 5:1-10 at my father’s funeral. He went into eternity in 1985 when I was twenty-nine years old. A former professor of mine, Dr. J.P. Moreland, called this the Perspectival View. He uses the idea of two twins: one is in a space ship in outer space traveling at the speed of light and the other remains on earth. For the one in the space ship, time slows down; however, for the one on earth, time continues on its normal course. When the brother in space returns to earth, he finds that years have passed. His twin brother is now seventy-nine years old, but the brother from the space ship may be only thirty. For those who sleep in their graves to us, they are already with the Lord Jesus in his eternal kingdom. They already have their resurrection bodies. At the Second Coming in time, they do not have to be resurrected but revealed. That is why Paul uses the term “revealed” in his later Epistles instead of resurrection. It is true to say that both of Paul’s views are mentioned in some of his Epistles. He juxtaposes the ideas of being with Christ at the moment of death and the Second Coming. In all fairness to our friends who accept the view of a soul and a body, I will say that Jesus said: “Do not fear those that kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.” I must say that this seems to be an acceptance of the immortality of the soul and the resurrection of the body. If that is the case, we return to the problem of the soul in evolutionary creationism. I would have to say that the Wisdom of Solomon in the non-canonical books might offer a solution. The soul preexists the body and was created by God in eternity. It is sent at the time one is conceived. At the Second Coming when the resurrection occurs, it returns with Jesus to reclaim its home–the body. The soul in this case would not be eternal because what God creates, he can destroy. It lives after the death of the body because it is the beginning of eternal life. God gives the soul this life, and He will give our bodies eternal life one day. As Aristotle taught, everything has a soul: animals, plants, and human beings. Only we have souls that are allowed to life on. All other souls must die with the body. The human being is not naturally immortal; on the contrary, God still gives us immortality in two ways: the body and the soul. Thomas Aquinas accepted that. I can either accept the view of instantaneous resurrection of the body or that souls that can live separately from the body until the resurrection. The second view I have mentioned would then produce the idea of eternal time. I do not know if I can accept that. I agree with our brother Roger that Paul teaches nothing about a soul. He simply says that to die is to be with Christ and to die is gain. I must believe that. My father and mother whom I deeply loved are in the eternal NOW of heaven. I believe that C.S. Lewis accepted that view too. The children in the “Last Battle” go into a stall door that is not a complete building. They find the narnian heaven and are told that they died in a train wreck in England. Aslan, a type of Christ, tells them this. Also, they are not disembodied spirits; on the contrary, they have new bodies. God bless all my friends. I am now going into my study to read a German novel on the Battle of Hastings and Norman England. My wife, Nancy, wishes to say “hello” also.

Henry

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I have decided to return a while to my friends on the blog. I have been watching a film on the life of William Tyndale, the translator of our Bible into English. I do have to agree also with my friend Eddie. Judgment is taught in the writings of Plato. We learn from the Republic that Er, who had a near death experience, goes to the Greek heaven. There is a judgment. The souls of the good have a millennium in heavenly bless or they could make another choice. The ones who did not make heaven have to return for a millennium in a series of lives, and the evil would go to Tartarus, the Greek version of hell. I hope this has been helpful. Now I am going back to William Tyndale.

I have decided to return to express something else. Remember what Jesus said concerning the soul and body: “Do not fear those who can kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Fear Him that can destroy soul and body in hell.” The Son of God seems to be saying that our souls live temporarily without the home of the body. Since Jesus according to Matthew 10:28 said this, it should be considered. However, when Jesus speaks about resurrection to the Sadducees, he seems to support the idea of immediate resurrection. This can be explained with the concept of the human soul too. God bless.

I wish to thank Roger for welcoming me. I am enjoying the conversation of each of you. I wish also to thank all of you for considering my comments. It is kind of all of you.

@Eddie,

Saul, a Pharisee, who became Paul, attacked the Christians because they rejected the Jewish Law. After he encountered the resurrected Jesus, Paul accepted the view that the new covenant of Jesus Christ replaced the old Mosaic covenant of the Law.

Because Paul know that Jesus has risen from the dead he believed in the Resurrection, even though he was in agreement with this view with the Pharisees, as against the Sadducees. I agree with Paul not for some ideological reason, but because it is true, and makes good theological sense.

Paul did not write a systematic view of what happens after death, and although many people seem to think they know, I do not. However I think that the basic thoughts I have shared here are reasonable. Eddie is free to disagree.

When Socrates made a dramatic statement on his deathbed, before drinking poison against the advice of his friends, it could not help but be seen as an important statement of faith that shaped the worldview of his many followers. He specifically rejected the tripartite view of humanity and endorsed the understanding of the dualistic body and soul view of humankind. Whether Plato meant it to be that way, I do not know…

@Henry,

Thank you for the comment.

I think that the point Jesus is making is that the human spirit, unlike the body, is not material. People think that when the body dies, the mind and the spirit do also. but Jesus is saying that they are wrong. They cannot kill the mind and spirit because they are not physical, but relational.

The question is How does this happen, through an immortal soul or some way else? I and many others believe with Paul that nothing can separate us from the love of God through Jesus Christ. Rom 8 If God loves us, we, our minds, spirits, and bodies must exist, because God cannot love something that does not exist.

I wish to thank you Eddie for mentioning my contribution. I know you are aware that the Pharisees did accept the Platonic immortality of the soul as well as the resurrection of the body. Even though I do not accept the Platonic concept of the soul, I believe I am now accepting the view of St. Thomas Aquinas. He followed the view of Aristotle that the human soul was a form within the human body and was also a substance in its own right. As you already know, Aquinas said that the soul could live without the body; however, the soul was not naturally immortal as Plato taught. God had the power to annihilate the soul if he so wished; however, God chooses not to do so. I feel this can be seen in Matthew 10:28. This can also been seen in Revelation 6:9 as well as Revelation 20: 1-10. In II Corinthians 12 Paul is not sure if he was in the body or out of the body when he was translated to the third heaven. I now feel that there are too many scriptures to accept monism and an immediate resurrection although the thought is interesting and I shall probably still consider it. Wisdom of Solomon 3:1-9 would support the concept of a soul created by God. The soul did not evolve as the body did. I believe that chapter 5 of the Wisdom may also support the preexistence of the soul. Adam and Eve were probably the Federal Representatives of humanity that God created at that time. As Dr. Francis Collins believes, there may have been more human beings created and that could answer how Cain found his wife. When Adam and Eve sinned all mankind fell. Human beings were alive physically but dead spiritually. Their souls were separated from the Lord of life. It could also be true that all human beings come from Adam and Eve. I am not denying that either. You probably would like to know to which church I belong. I am a Southern Baptist; however, I am a moderate-conservative in my thinking. I am willing to consider many Christian views. I suppose I should rest now. God bless. Also, please feel free to send me your comments on what I have just written. Even if you disagree on some things, that is fine with me. None of us can ever stop learning from each other