Not that I’m recommending it at all, but the best immunity might be to get COVID, survive it without any long term impairments (anyone volunteering?), and add vaccinations.
A safer bet would be to do it in the reverse order (which I think I’ve managed to do, but don’t really know).
1 Like
And do it asymptomatically. It sounds like you had very mild symptoms? (If so, I’m glad!)
I’m pretty sure I’ve been inoculated with West Nile (I was feverish for a couple of days after a few mosquito bites the previous week, and no one else was), and maybe anthrax, too – I’ve inhaled enough dirt and gravel road dust over the years, and dust blown from cultivated fields, too. I’ve read that is likely the case for farmers, not that I am one.
Thanks. Yale prof of social and natural science Christakis
Bottom line: natural immunity is probably somewhat less effective at preventing serious COVID19 compared to vaccine immunity, or possibly just as effective. But this depends on many details: how sick you got, your age, the variants in circulation, and follow-up duration. 4/
3 Likes
DaughterofEve…I have heard many of the conspiracy theories too. It is hard to know what to believe when it comes to some of them. I do not think I can convince people who have grasped onto a conspiracy theory and take it for gospel. You could inquire about their source for these things and start with that. The issue is their source.
3 Likes
The problem with natural immunity is that you have to survive covid to acquire it.
3 Likes
Right. I think that the question has been whether we need a booster or not. Boosters definitely have been increasing antibody levels after vaccines, and it seems reasonable to infer that they will do so after an infection. I know of case recently of sickness the 2nd time with Covid, and was much worse off; and there are reports of people dying the 2nd time. Numbers will show, but it makes sense to recommend a booster for both, especially with waning immunity in both cases.
3 Likes
I can’t wait to get my booster!
1 Like
No boosters available within a 25-mile radius thus far! At least my community takes this seriously!
3 Likes
Wonderful! Just as an aside, I can’t put details out, but there have been some awful complications for pregnant ladies with Covid lately in our area… Clots after Covid, cardiomyopathy, etc.
1 Like
First, my point in using it is that people are going to hear that word from the covid vax hesitant. The response from several here would guarantee that the conversation would end. So I recommend that in conversation we allow the word “lie” to include “making definitive statements when you don’t really know.” Let’s discuss whether CDC has done this.
I have mentioned before that we are in a propaganda war, and it seems to me that the leftist domestic media has only ever reported studies that support “vaccine is way better.” One I dug into, the “5.49 times as effective,” should never have passed peer review yet it’s on the CDC site. Unfortunately the media has us divided into two camps: you’re either for us or against us and from the CDC “we are science.” But as even Aaron Rodgers knows, “If science can’t be questioned it’s not science anymore, it’s propaganda.”
@glipsnort Here’s the public statement from the CDC. “MYTH: The natural immunity I get from being sick with COVID-19 is better than the immunity I get from COVID-19 vaccination.” (capitalization of MYTH is theirs!) Myths and Facts about COVID-19 Vaccines | CDC From what I know, calling that statement a “myth” is simply wrong. The paragraphs under it do not justify the black-and-white claim. It reminds me of the overall propaganda wars in the media in general: selective facts marshaled to support a pre-determined narrative.
Quote from the Christakis thread (excellent thread BTW): "A September 2021 meta-analysis of 7 studies from US, Israel, & UK concluded that ‘natural immunity in COVID-recovered individuals is, at least, equivalent to the protection afforded by full vaccination of COVID-naïve populations.’ " My conclusion from this: NI is “more probably than not” better than VI.
I agree with @glipsnort that there are two questions: what the science actually says and whether the CDC has misrepresented. We have to answer the first before we can deal with the second. It is my opinion that the CDC has been heavy handed in asserting things that they should know are not justified. The vax hesitant would call those “lies,” and I would argue it does no good to start discussing the meaning of “lie” to absolve anyone.
So let’s focus on the data on this question. Since population studies are available, they should be considered definitive over studies on things like anti-body titers. Population studies are real world outcomes of real people.
I’m not sure how to do an exhaustive search on the CDC site, so if you can help out, let’s crowd-source this. How many population studies are on the CDC site that support “vaccine is better than natural immunity” and how many come to the reverse conclusion?
Here ya go (follow the link):
site:cdc.gov search terms here - Google Search
And use quotation marks for exact terms and must include.
1 Like
@Marty , thank you for this. If I understand right, you’re concerned that the CDC is undermining its own statements by being excessively certain. If I am not understanding you, please let me know.
It seems to me that the statement they made is (perhaps to make it simpler) potentially confusing. It can convey the wrong thing. It depends on the question we’re asking.
If the question is whether a vaccine immunity is better than Covid immunity, ever, then yes, it’s misleading. Some Covid infections may be as good, or even better than, the vaccine, from what I’m reading. I am not an immunologist, and there are certain characteristics of vaccines that could well make the immunogenicity better than the infection, I think–they have all sorts of ways of tweaking vaccines (carbohydrate groups, etc). I would have to ask a specialist or research that more. Covid certainly is more dangerous than the vaccine–but I think we are on the same page there…
However, if it’s saying that the Covid infection is reliably better than the vaccine, that does sound like a myth to me. One of the key words, according to the Science Brief and what Christakis says, is reliability. Again, this is not my bailiwick–so I am acknowledging that I need to read more (notice that I am also trying to avoid excess certainty, as a good rule of thumb!)
There are other potential misunderstandings. It seems to me that some are hoping that a one time, “natural” infection with Covid, will cure them for the rest of their lives. About a year ago, we were hoping that the vaccine would do something like that. Why wouldn’t it seem likely that the “natural” infection would do that? Makary seemed to think that it would, when he compared the vaccine to chickenpox (but they are apples and oranges, completely different viruses, and chickenpox does need boosters; and can come back as shingles).
In my perspective as a clinician, the question is, sadly, now moot. Both the vaccine and Covid have waning immunity. People with both histories can get very sick. Both, based on studies thus far need a booster. If I have Covid, as I would if I had the shingles (if I weren’t immunized), I would get the vaccine to cement my immunity safely as soon as I could (CDC says 10 days and, I think, even 3 months is fine, because recurrent infection after Covid is unusual to before 3 months. In shingles, you get a booster at 50 years, or a year after the outbreak if you’re not vaccinated).
Have you ever read GK Chesterton’s “The Invisible Man”? In it, he points out how we all speak with pre determined definitions, to the point that we don’t always say what we mean. For example, when the murderer in the story escaped, asking if anyone had left the exit was met with the response, “No,” until they clarified that the mailman, (who was the murderer, but came there daily) had also passed that way. The people involved had automatically assumed they were looking for a stranger. It can be very confusing.
I find that my friends and family who are anti-vaccine often misunderstand for various ways… At our Christmas celebration, one aunt laughed that an entire battleship was under quarantine, but they were immunized. She was incredulous, and felt that that meant the vaccine was useless. Another person remarked to me that the vaccine’s purpose was to re open society.
This whole journey of 2 years of careful masking, social distancing, financial hardship, and preaching of vaccines can be very disappointing. At first, we were all hoping that Covid would come under control quickly (I was, anyway). Disappointment can naturally lead to anger, frustration, and conspiracy thinking, too. A partner of mine has recommended that I read Camus’ “The Plague,” written 60 years ago or so, which predicts similar reactions to a plague.
The real reason for the vaccine, as we all know, is to protect from severe illness and death. It is not to make us go back to not needing masks, though that is sometimes uppermost in my mind, given the inconvenience! However, I have to admit that I was perhaps too hopeful about the vaccine. It’s not as effective as I had wished. I wanted a miracle cure. And sometimes, I think that I (and maybe others) focused on the benefits of the vaccine too much, in the hopes of getting the vaccine hesitant to comply. I can’t think of any lies about it, but I was really eager to get back to normal, too, and my mind picture was perhaps too rosy.
It has done a wonderful job of diminishing death and illness, and all the people I know who have died or been severely ill have not been immunized, or else were immunized 8 months ago and had other significant medical problems. However, being overly optimistic can amount, especially in the minds of the hesitant, to sounding like lying.
And, as you said, and McIntyre put below, being as humble and up front as possible saves miscommunication. In the article below, he notes a pro-vaxxer who made incorrect statements about the number of people who died with measles.
Thus, if I understand it right, you are trying to prevent an undermining of vaccines and true science, by preventing propaganda.
This is my own take on the CDC’s statement. If you want more studies, you can also reference the 96 entries in bibliography under the Science Brief, too. However, I find I need epidemiologists to help me interpret population based studies. That’s why they could get information that proved that ivermectin did not help, for example; and CDC is very accurate and helpful in that way, too.
I think we both believe in the CDC’s accuracy and reliability. How would an entire department of scientist coordinate to hoodwink us? Why would they want to? Wouldn’t there be an outcry of NIH and other countries? There’s no benefit to a massive conspiracy. However, I agree that we need clarification of statements, and to be aware of and avoid propaganda.
If I am mistaken, please clarify for me. Please let me know what your concern is Thanks.
Thank you.
4 Likes
This happened to a friend. She was 40 and had no “risk factors.” I don’t understand why anyone would use the “I already had COVID” as some kind of excuse not to get vaccinated. There is a lot to lose just to avoid a safe free shot.
7 Likes
I wonder, too–but I have had people very definitely against the shot, and seeming to prefer to get Covid. One reason I had heard was from “Christian radio.” We have a couple of very good stations (Moody and Cornerstone University), but some other fringe stations are out there, too.
Being of a mostly financially conservative bent, I’m beginning to think of the cost, too–even if we would rather risk going to the hospital than having a shot, the cost of the average Covid hospitalization is $30K to $100K, depending on complications. It’s really not financially wise.
5 Likes
I nominate this as “the understatement of the year.”
4 Likes
And you might think you have good insurance, but then the eye-popping bills arrive.
3 Likes
It’s pretty early yet, but it has a good shot. ; - )
1 Like
I drove about 50 miles to get my booster as early as possible. Walgreens (probably other drug stores, too) has a great appointment system, that tells you what appointments are available within your preferred radius.
Warning, I felt REALLY lousy for about 5 or 6 hours the day after my booster. I’m hoping that means my body worked really hard to prepare to kill covid, if I am invaded. And I continue to live life very much like I did a year ago before I could be vaccinated the first time. Oi.
3 Likes
The booster was the worst of the three shots for me. I was completely wiped out for half a day also. But I was also thinking the same thing as you – hope it means our defenses are well prepared!
3 Likes