No, but my son, who is an authority, does.
What?! An authority in what? Don’t embarrass him.
dry air is more dense that humid air! Moist Air - Density vs. Water Content and Temperature
@gbob – I feel your figurative pain.
And what you forget is what Dale points out. Moist air is less dense. It will rise.
Why would it rise? Because it is being pushed up and out of the basin by the continual rise of the waters BENEATH IT. You seem to have trouble keeping in mind that the air is being forced to rise from the water underneath it.
Yeah, I can consider more than one thing at a time. Rain in such a basin would be quite rare because moist air coming down loses relative humidity and thus is even less likely to rain. But when water starts pouring into the basin, just like at sea, the humidity is palpable and the rising air would condense and rain. Bill, this isn’t that tough a concept.
You take your son’s word. I doubt you explained the geographic situation to him well because you seem to never grasp that water pouring into the basin will cause the air to rise.
Sigh, Bill, you really don’t understand geology. Rivers don’t just appear one day, they change course and find a new way to the sea. Even a shepherd would know at the breach in the river levee that it was the same river now flowing a different direction. And I have the historical example of the Yellow River which he shepherds in China never renamed. Sheesh
Im not sure the pain is figurative. Pounding my head on my desk at the lack of understanding actually hurts. lol
PhD in Meteorology. Published author. Member of AMS. etc. etc. You reading all the posts in this thread?
Have you actually asked him about water vapor/humid air being heavier than dry air?
At a very slow rate. There is not enough lift to generate rain. Which you seem to keep forgetting. Go back and check the updraft speeds I posted.
The relative humidity can change with temperature but the amount of water vapor present does not. And descending air increases in temperature and you need it to decrease in temperature if you want to reach the dew point. Oh wait, are you back on the No Rain scenario? I am confused. Are you describing the mechanism that would generate 40 days of rain or no rain? You seem to want to use the same scenario in both cases.
I did and he was already familiar with the Messinian Salinity crisis. Knew more about it than I did which is not surprising. This is a kid that in the 2nd grade asked his teacher what an occluded front was. His response to your theory was, “Not even wrong” as I said before. But then you are demanding a published paper before you will take his word. When I asked him about that he just laughed.
I understand geology from a layman’s perspective. You understand weather from a layman’s perspective.
So if there is an earthquake which changes a river’s course what would someone a couple of hundred miles down that soon to be river’s course see? Nothing at first. When it finally cuts the new course it will suddenly appear. Suddenly in geologic terms.
And the people in China were probably moving up and down the river as it slowly changed so yes, to them it was the same river. And I just went back and checked your graphic. All of those course changes happened in recorded history. You have nothing to show what it was called before written history. I am sure it has been around long before 500 BC. Remember you are the one that wants to push this to a long, long time before written history.
I don’t have too. And just so you don’t have to take my word on it here is a quote. I actually went through all of the boxes where my meterology book might be and came up empty. Oh well it is around here somewhere.
Note: The added buoyancy comes into play after the air has cooled during its ascent. This is known as adiabatic cooling. In other words that air has to have already risen high enough for the relative humidity to reach 100%. The weather models do take this into account.
You do have to ask him. You just proved it. A hot air balloon is a separate system from free humid air.
I covered that issue. rate of uplift is not part of the condensation equation. You are proposing a change to the laws of physics. Im not going to cover this again, cause it did no good the first time
I didn’t say the absolute water content changed. RH determines when rain starts. absolute saturation is determined by the air temperature. Thus, as far as rain is concerned relative humidity is the important number.
I disagree with both statements Bill. I have pointed out that my first paper was on atmospherice radiative transfer which involved a lot of atmospheric physics.
See, you dont’ understand geology. Rivers don’t change course slowly. they change rapidly within a few days. lol, as to not knowing what people thought before written history, you have nothing to show for your case either.
Bill, you are a waste of time. I am through responding to you. With logic like the above, where you say I don’t know what people did in prehistory, as if that is a point in your favor when you also know nothing about that either, I find that I am debating with someone who knows very little science and who doesn’t want to learn. I am through with you
BTW, a hot air balloon has nothing to do with my example. An open air balloon has an open bottom. Mine didn’t. bye bye
Because your son understands meteorology does not mean that you are anything different than a layman!
(What does latent heat have to do with in humid air and water vapor that is not condensing?)
Well I didn’t want to disturb him as he has a newborn at home but he called so I did ask him. No that is not a factor used to model rainfall.
A hot air balloon is a good example of how they model rain. Same principle. Warm air is less dense than cold and it therefore will rise. The models assume a fixed parcel of air (just like a balloon) and then they calculate changes in that parcel with pressure and temperature. The models actually project the movement of that parcel as conditions change. How else do you think they could do it? That is why the models are computational intense and required large systems with massive amounts of data storage to run.
But he is a great resource to rebut gbob. And he taught me a lot about meterology. Not nearly enough to call myself a OCM but probably more than the average layman.
Everything when it comes to generating rain.
But you never explained how the air gets high enough to start the cooling that you think is the sole source of the lift.
But nothing on rainfall correct?
So a river that changes course will find a new path literally overnight? What happens if the new course is blocked by a higher elevation that requires the river to tunnel through, under, or around. As I think happened to the Colorado river when it changed course in the Grand Canyon.
See my response to Dale.
Yes. Thank you. And moist air rises above equal temperature dry air. It is more buoyant.
Most rain that I am familiar with is already condensed.
If you have a parcel of moist air next to a parcel of dry air what keeps them from mixing before the moist air rises? Nothing. In fact the moist air rising through dry air is going to mix and become less moist.
That is the final product of the process. Did you know rain starts as snow?
Dear @Bill_II:
Ask your son, unless you are embarrassed to.
You excel at double-talk. Of course moist air will mix with dry air. So will hydrogen. Dry air is still more dense than the same volume of moist air at the same temperature.
Maybe this will get through to you:
Neither do you know it. Not all rain starts as snow. Ask your son.
I did. Did you forget?
And again that is not a factor that is included in the models used to predict rain.
Did I say all rain? Many people do not know that some types of rain starts as snow. Do you know the difference between warm rain and cold rain? Do you know what is needed to produce rain before you get to water vapor and the condensation process?
There are several different processes that produce rain and all are much more complicated than gbob’s simple idea.
Sure, now you sidestep the obvious inference.