Are you sure about this part? I think Scripture says Jesus is still a human. One resurrected to eternity and seated at the right hand of God, but a human none the less. Where does it ever imply the Incarnation was reversed?
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[quote=“1god, post:13, topic:38581, full:true”]
Apples and oranges …
Flesh and spirit …
Dust + of the earth is what is pumped from the hydrothermal vents .
To get real technical , we are carbon based life , carbon makes up the bulk of organic matter in topsoil as far as my understanding goes .
In context , we are hydrated inflated carbon , or dust of the earth / stardust in the flesh .[/quote]
Kind 'a hard to make Earth out of Stardust when you know Earth was created on day one, and stars on day four.
It is my opinion , that our spirit is in the image of God , but some may disagree .
That which is born of the flesh is flesh , that which is born
Of the spirit is spirit[/quote]
Agree!
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One day …this is a regular debate and has been for longer than I have been in it …lol
Some would say “Yom” or " day" in Hebrew is not just defined as a 24 hour day , that it also means , 12 hour , a season , an epoch , or any defined timeframe , etc …
Another perspective is , the actual word for word account doesn’t specify that the creation took place in days , but the revelation to Moses took days , that it was days of visions/ dreams given to Moses " and the evening and the morning were ___day " is referencing the length of visions Moses received .
Further , that the length of God’s day is longer than a human life " 1 day as a thousand years , and a thousand years as 1 day " …
Finally , where was God positioned ? Half of earth is in daylight , half in night …it’s always day and always night when viewed from outside the earth .that the length of day is relative to where you stand .barrow Alaska has continued sunlight lasting months , where as on the equator , it’s 12 /12 day vs night …
And God saw that it was good …saw seasons and years were good … witnessed seasons and years in a single 24 hour day ?
If it is your stance that the earth was created in 24 hour timeframes , I would not attempt to destroy your beliefs based on faith .
But it is going to be difficult to show any physical evidence of that .
it has been considered allegory by some even in the 1st century …
As to stars and earth …the account , by my understanding , can imply an earth bound perspective …in this veiw , there are many times we cannot see the sun or stars ,yet there is still light ( winter /volcanic cloud cover / nuclear fallout / pollution ) …
If the heaven in gen1:1 is referencing what is above ( sky , space , the universe beyond earth ) then heavenly bodies ( stars / planets /ect ) we’re created on the first day and we’re not made visible to the earth until later …
Again , just another perspective .
The resurrection was physical. Jesus has a glorified body that is still physical. To deny this is Gnosticism.
True. The Christology in John is very high, even higher than in the other gospels.
[quote=“beaglelady, post:25, topic:38581, full:true”]
[quote=“ManiacalVesalius, post:20, topic:38581”]
Jesus never says He isn’t God in those verses.[/quote]
Sure he did. If you would know…“whether of God, OR of myself…” certainly makes a distinction in the origin of the message. Is something OF GOD, OR is that something OF MYSELF cannot be read any other way.
Please show me where in John 1:1 “Jesus” is mentioned, referenced, or otherwise acknowledged.
“In the beginning was the logos and the logos was with God and the logos was God.”
- The “beginning” of which John speaks (in 96 a.d.) is not the beginning of creation. John had already referenced the beginning of creation in “The book of Revelations” in 69 a.d. and he did not replicate that greeting in his gospel.
JOHN HAD PREVIOUSLY REFERENCED “THE BEGINNING OF CREATION” IN 69 A.D.
“…the beginning of the creation of God;” ee arxee tees ktisews tou Theou [the beginning of the creation of the God];"[Rev 3:14]
PETER HAD ALSO RAISED THE ISSUE TWO YEARS PRIOR TO JOHN’S EFFORT - 67 A.D.
II Pet 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were ap arxees ktisews [from the beginning of the creation].
AND MARK DID SO IN 68 A.D. -
Mark 10:6 But from the arxees ktisews [beginning of creation] God made them male and female.
68 ad Mark 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not [ap arxhs ktisews hn ektisen o` Theos ews tou nun] [from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time], neither shall be.
The point I have established here, is that had John desired to reference “the beginning of creation of God” he certainly knew how to do it, and if he did not, i think it safe to say, his source of inspiration did, the Holy Spirit who inspired them all.
But John was reticent in this occasion, to write of those things about which he had previous experience; i.e., the beginning of creation. Instead, he wrote of “the beginning” which has been associated with a very different subject, that of the gospel in its formative form.
AND THIS IS WHAT BEGINNING OTHER THAN CREATION LOOKS LIKE IN THE GREEK:
IN 96 A.D. WROTE en arxee een ho logos John 1:1
John wrote “En arxh” = “In beginning” and not only did NOT reference a creation, he did not even reference a parallel account of the Genesis story, as scholars have claimed for centuries.
Look at how John uses his language in an effort to make clear, the timeframe of his subject material - [96 ad] - “Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from [Teen arxeen] the beginning.” -John 8:25
And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from [ap arxees] the beginning. -John 15:27
But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the [arxees] beginning, because I was with you. -John 16:4
HERE IS A COMPARATIVE SAMPLE FROM SCRIPTURE
Compare with John’s opening in his gospel -
“En arxh” “En arxh” [Jn 1:1]
“Teen arxeen”[Jn 8:25]
“ap arxees” [John 15:27]
“arxees” [John 16:4]
Then compare with those references to the beginning of creation -
"h arxee ktisews tou Theou" [Rev 3:14] "ap arxees ktisews" [II Pet 3:4] "arxees ktisews" [Mark 10:6] "ap arxhs ktisews hn ektisen o Theos ews tou nun [Mark 13:19]
2nd) God used the logion (Oracles) to judge Man prior to the coming of the LOGOS.
Before there was ever a logos, the logion was used to judge men
Psalm 105:19 Until the time that his (1)(logon) word came: the (2) (logion) word of the LORD tried him.
1(logon) Accusative masculine singular form of noun “logos.”
2(logion) Accusative neuter singular form of the noun
“logios.”
“The Logos which was God” referenced by John, was NOT in the beginning at creation. The proof of this is found early in the Old Testament. The Logion of God preceded the Logos of God by centuries and eons of time. Not until the law was given to Moses, did the Logos spoken by God become an issue.
Psalm 105:16 “Moreover he called for a famine upon the land: he brake the whole staff of bread. 17 He sent a man before them, even Joseph, who was sold for a servant: 18 Whose feet they hurt with fetters: he was laid in iron: 19 Until the time that his logon (word) came; the logion (word) of the LORD tried him. 20 The king sent and loosed him; even the ruler of the people, and let him go free. 21 He made him lord of his house, and ruler of all his substance:”(Psalm 105:16-19)
Later, the law was given to Moses.
Exo 24:3 And Moses went in and related to the people all the (1)(reema)words of God and the ordinances; and all the people answered with one voice, saying, All the (2)(logos) words which the Lord has spoken, we will do and be obedient.4 And Moses wrote all the (7)(reemata) words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.
5 And he sent young men of the children of Israel, which offered burnt offerings, and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen unto the LORD.6 And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar.7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these (8)(logwn) words.
The “Beginning” which John referenced was the beginning of the gospel.
Jesus told the disciples “ye have been with me from the beginning.”
John 15:27 “ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.”
And again “But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.” in John 16:4
The “LOGION” is found in the New Testament and four out of five times is translated “ORACLES” and the fifth time “Eloquent” - which is a reference to “education or scholarly.”
Christians are under the admonition of the ORACLES of God, which were given to the Jews who held them waiting for the coming of the Gentiles into the fold of the family of God.
Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
1 Pet 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
So “In the beginning was the logos” is a reference to “the beginning of the gospel of John.”
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Makes as much sense as most other stuff I’ve read here.
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For anybody who is interested, here is a lecture – Christology as Theology: The Johannine Approach as a Challenge Then and Now – by Jörg Frey, Professor of New Testament at the University of Zurich, speaking at Yale Divinity School. It’s actually the first of 3 lectures.
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???
Oh , I like that poster !!!..
I recently told someone …
" We are apes riding a dirtball in the outward spiralling arm of the milky way , located in the Virgo supercluster at the edge of the universe complaining to the management that we don’t like the view "
In reference to complaining to God about his creation .
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8 posts were split to a new topic: Jesus and the Resurrection – What will our bodies be like?
Please show me where in John 1:1 “Jesus” is mentioned, referenced, or otherwise acknowledged.
“In the beginning was the logos and the logos was with God and the logos was God.”
The “beginning” of which John speaks (in 96 a.d.) is not the beginning of creation. John had already referenced the beginning of creation in “The book of Revelations” in 69 a.d. and he did not replicate that greeting in his gospel.
There is no evidence that whoever wrote the Gospel of John was also the author of the Book of Revelation. Scholarly generally agree that the person who wrote Revelation is distinct from the person who wrote the Gospel of John, 1 John, 2 John, and 3 John. We simply don’t really know who John of Patmos is. As Richard Bauckham points out in his Theology of the Book of Revelation (2003, Cambridge University Press), pg. 2;
Virtually all we know about John, the author of Revelation, is that he was a Jewish Christian prophet. Evidently he was one of a circle of prophets in the churches of the province of Asia (22:6), and evidently he had at least one rival: the Thyatiran prophetess whom he considers a false prophet (2:20).
I’d like to see you offer any evidence that whoever wrote the Gospel also wrote Revelation. Consequently, it would be a fundamental error to claim that John 1:1 is not talking about the beginning of creation. It obviously is. You also make some strange Greek transliteration mistakes – for example, “In the beginning” is ‘en arche’, not ‘en arxh’.
John 1:1-3: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
So, this is clearly talking about the beginning, the moment when all things were made. Since it is situated at the very beginning of the Gospel, the phrase “In the beginning” clearly calls the readers attention to Genesis 1:1.
HERE IS A COMPARATIVE SAMPLE FROM SCRIPTURE
Compare with John’s opening in his gospel -
“En arxh” “En arxh” [Jn 1:1]
“Teen arxeen”[Jn 8:25]
“ap arxees” [John 15:27]
“arxees” [John 16:4]
Sorry, but I don’t see the relevance of any of this. Is your point that the Greek is read in different spellings? That’s because of inflection, not the use of different words/meaning terms.
“The Logos which was God” referenced by John, was NOT in the beginning at creation. The proof of this is found early in the Old Testament. The Logion of God preceded the Logos of God by centuries and eons of time. Not until the law was given to Moses, did the Logos spoken by God become an issue.
Psalm 105:16 “Moreover he called for a famine upon the land: he brake the whole staff of bread. 17 He sent a man before them, even Joseph, who was sold for a servant: 18 Whose feet they hurt with fetters: he was laid in iron: 19 Until the time that his logon (word) came; the logion (word) of the LORD tried him. 20 The king sent and loosed him; even the ruler of the people, and let him go free. 21 He made him lord of his house, and ruler of all his substance:”(Psalm 105:16-19)
This just looks like a strange misprint of the actual text. Here’s the NRSV translation, there is no Logos figure here. This translation is clearly a fabrication, since Logos is a Greek word that can be written in John because John was written in Greek, but the Hebrew Old Testament has no word ‘Logos’. It does have a different Hebrew word for the word ‘word’, but in these verses, this just means ‘words’ in the normal sense. There is no “Logion” in the Old Testament, let alone a “Logion” that precedes the Logos. Thus, your arguments really make no sesne at all. “In the beginning” has nothing to do with the beginning of the Gospel itself, obviously, since it’s juxtaposed with creation in the second and third verses and evokes Genesis later on. The final sword in your theory is the fact that the concept of the Logos predates the Gospel of John itself, and is found in earlier literature (such as the Jewish philosopher Philo of Alexandria in the early to mid 1st century), and the Logos in those texts is referred to exist in the beginning of time, creation. So considering what John itself says, as well as its historical context, there can be no doubt that John 1:1 is literally about the beginning.
Sometimes I think I learn by hearing things from another religion’s point of view (meaning, seeing it from someone else’s eyes clarifies something for me)–so here’s one I learned in Africa. It’s very repulsive to most Muslims that we would consider Jesus a “son” of God–as though God had a flesh and blood son by intercourse with Mary. That would especially be despicable to compare a human with the Divine God.
On a trip out with the evangelists one day, one evangelist explained the relationship between God and Jesus using Islamic imagery. Since a message is to the addressee as an image of the sender, so the Qur’an, Injil and other books are to us from God. Since the Qur’an also describes Jesus as "the word of God, the Spirit of God (Annabi Isa, ibnu Maryam, kalmatullahi, ruhuwallahi as I recall), Jesus is the Word, similar to the written Word, a representative of God.
Not sure if that makes sense in this discussion or not. Another area I’d like to study more is the ancient near east habit of ascribing attributes by saying someone is “the son of” something or someone. For example, Jesus was the son of Man as well as of God. Our language, Hausa, was 1/4 derived from Arabic from assimilation over the last centuries. The Hausa also have a habit of saying something is the son of a given attribute. For example, a bulldozer is a 'dan 'karo, “son of strength.” All these nuances probably contribute; but I don’t want to jump on any one single one too strongly and say I understand it. Thanks.
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[quote=“Randy, post:37, topic:38581, full:true”]
Sometimes I think I learn by hearing things from another religion’s point of view (meaning, seeing it from someone else’s eyes clarifies something for me)–so here’s one I learned in Africa. It’s very repulsive to most Muslims that we would consider Jesus a “son” of God–as though God had a flesh and blood son by intercourse with Mary. That would especially be despicable to compare a human with the Divine God.[/quote]
Actually the terms “Sons and daughters of God” is a reference to those who are baptized into Christ, and He becomes like an elder brother to us, and we. being in Christ, are adopted into the family of God.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
And being baptized into Christ also places us “in Christ” as He was raised to sit at the right hand of God, so we have immediate access to the Father in prayer.
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Eph 2: 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
[quote=“Randy, post:37, topic:38581, full:true”]
On a trip out with the evangelists one day, one evangelist explained the relationship between God and Jesus using Islamic imagery. Since a message is to the addressee as an image of the sender, so the Qur’an, Injil and other books are to us from God. Since the Qur’an also describes Jesus as "the word of God, the Spirit of God (Annabi Isa, ibnu Maryam, kalmatullahi, ruhuwallahi as I recall), Jesus is the Word, similar to the written Word, a representative of God.
Not sure if that makes sense in this discussion or not. Another area I’d like to study more is the ancient near east habit of ascribing attributes by saying someone is “the son of” something or someone. For example, Jesus was the son of Man as well as of God. Our language, Hausa, was 1/4 derived from Arabic from assimilation over the last centuries. The Hausa also have a habit of saying something is the son of a given attribute. For example, a bulldozer is a 'dan 'karo, “son of strength.” All these nuances probably contribute; but I don’t want to jump on any one single one too strongly and say I understand it. Thanks.[/quote]
I find it equally interesting how “Father” is used;
For example, a person who originates something is called the Father of…whatever is under consideration. We are familiar with the expression, “the Father of modern medicine;” “the Father of modern industry;” even the nation understands the meaning of “the founding Fathers.”
It can even reference a prototype, as “the horseless carriage was the Father of the automobile.” And of course there is a group of men in history called “the Church Fathers;” none of whom “Fathered” the church.
And there is also a concept by which we understand the usage of “Father-time.”
And “Children of wrath” has a meaning other than a man named “wrath” begetting progeny. Or “Children of the third generation” have not a Father named “third generation.” They are the third generation of children from a particular Father.
Scripture is repleat with examples of men who are called “Father” in a sense other than progenitor.
Joab is called the “Father of the valley of Charashim” wherein dwelled craftsmen, of whom he was first; “and Seraiah begat Joab, the father of the valley of Charashim; for they were craftsmen.” [1 Chron 4:14]
Jabal was either very prolific, or the use of “Father” indicates a new industry of tent-making, and cowboys; “And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle.” [Gen 4:20]
Jubal also is a “Father” of an industry, that of music; “And his brother’s name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ.” [Gen 4:21]
The Hebrew “kirjath-” means “city of” in several applications; and the Hebrew “Beth-” means “house of” in several applications:
And Sarah died in Kirjath-arba; the same is Hebron in the land of Canaan; [Gen 23:2]
And Balaam went with Balak, and they came unto kirjath-huzoth. [Num 22:39]
And the children of Israel journeyed, and came unto their cities on the third day. Now their cities were Gibeon, and Cephirah, and Beeroth, and Kirath-Jearim. [Josh 9:17]
Salma, the Father of Bethlehem, hareph, the Father of Beth-Gader. [I Chron 2:51]
And several “city Fathers” are listed in scripture:
Shobal the father of Kirjath-jearim, [1 Chron 2:50]
As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. [Gen 17:4]
Satan is called the “Father” of lies in [John 8:44]
Abraham is called the “Father” of all them that believe - [Rom 4:11]
God is called the “Father” of lights in [James 1:17]
Jesus is called “eternal Father” by virtue of the fact God gave him children that previously belonged to God himself. [Isa 8:18][Heb 2:13]
David calls God his “Father” in [Psa 89:26]
And Malachai says God is the "Father " of us all. [Mal 2:10]
The point of this is simply, that we have been misunderstanding the concept all this time. That God is the “Father of Jesus” does not mean that God somehow interacted with Mary, and physically begot a son. The Holy Spirit qactually “Begot” the Spirit of Jesus, which was spirit, and his body was of Mary. [Mat 1:20][John 3:6][Gal 4:4]
Look at how God works in the way of “Fathering” in the scriptures.
When God told Abraham “I have made thee a Father of many nations” Abraham had yet to have an heir. Yet “have made thee” is the tense used to show fulfillment, or accomplished fact. The deed is done, whether it is historically fact, or simply future potential.
Once God speaks a thing into existence, it is as real as actuallity.
God is the Father of the concept of Messiah, and Mediatiation, and Redemption. AND bt HIS Spirit, begat the spirit of Jesus of Nazareth; so He is the "Father of the concept, and the spirit, of Messiah, Mediator, and Redeemer.
Thanks for sharing with me.
[quote=“beaglelady, post:14, topic:38581, full:true”]
We had a variation on this topic just a short while ago, and it went on forever:
“Does the Bible really say Jesus was God?” [/quote]
You decide -
Jesus said “Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me (monos) alone: and yet “ouk eimi monos” (I am not alone), because the Father is with me.” [John 16:32]
Now look at how “MONOS” was applied to God the Father in the old testament, telling us He was "ALONE, i.e., Jesus was absent, not with the Father.
PROPHETS WERE MONOTHEISTIC
Jehovah God has already told us in Isaiah, that He, The Father, created heaven and earth monos (alone).
[Isa 37:16,20]
Isaiah 37:16 O (kurie)singular) LORD) of hosts, (Theos)singular) God) of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, (su) singular)thou) art the
(Theos)singular)God), even thou (monos (alone), of all the kingdoms of the earth: (su)singular)thou) hast made heaven and earth.
Isaiah 37:20 Now therefore, O (kurie)(singular)LORD) our (Theos)(singular)God), save us from his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that (su ei o’ Theos monos) (thou art the LORD, even (thou (monos) only).
Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the (kurios)(singular)LORD), thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb,(I am)singular)(egw) the (kurios)(singular) LORD) that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens (monos (alone); that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Nehemiah 9:6 Thou, even (su)(singular)thou), art (kurios)(singular)LORD) (monos)singular)alone); (su)(singular)thou) hast made heaven, the heaven of
heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and (su)(singular)thou) preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth (soi)(singular)thee).
NEH 9:6
THOU ART LORD -(HEBREW JEHOVAH) ALONE.
Psalm 86:10 thou art God monos (alone).
THOU ART THE GOD ALONE (monos).
In Gen 17:1 God introduced Himself to Abraham thusly:
EGW = first-person-singular pronoun ="I"
EIMI = first-person-singular present active verb ="am"
O’ = singular definite article = "the"
THEOS = Nominative masculine singular noun = “God”
“EGW EIMI O’ THEOS”
LAW WAS MONOTHEISTIC
a)Gen 17:1 In Gen 17:1 God introduced Himself to Abraham thusly:
“I” “am” “the” “God.”
b)Gen 26:24 “I” “am” “the” "God."
c)Gen 31:13 “I” “am” “the” "God."
d)Gen 46:3 “I” “am” “the” "God."
e)Exo 3:6 “I” “am” “the” “God.”
PSALMS WERE MONOTHEISTIC
f)Psa 45:11 “I” “am” “the” “God.”
PROPHETS
g)Isa 45:22 “I” “am” “the” "God."
h)Isa 46:9 “I” “am” “the” "God."
i)Isa 48:17 “I” “am” “the” “God.”
[B]NEW COVENANT[/B] WAS MONOTHEISTIC
j)Mat 22:32 “I” “am” “the” “God.”
So God introduced Himself to Abraham as a 1st person singular God. And He introduced Himself to the New Testament readers in the identical rhetoric He
used at the first. That takes care of the doctrine that he is a plurality of persons,
because “person singular” tells us how many persons are being considered; i.e., one. That is the meaning of “person singular” whether 1st, 2nd, or 3rd person
singular; or 1st, 2nd, or 3rd person plural - And it does not change when it gets to the New Covenant.
All of Sola Scriptura then tells the same story -
Mat 22:32 I am the God
In Exo 3:14 God introduced himself to Moses using singular pronoun, singular verb, singular definite article and singular verb participle. “I AM THE BEING.”
“Singular” participle means there is only one person in “The Being.”
Again, the number of “Persons” in God is a matter of Grammatical Principle, not comparison definition. No one has to prove God is a person, and no one has to
prove God is not three persons, because the grammatic principle deals with precisely that issue.
JEHOVAH GOD THE FATHER IS MONOTHEISTIC
The identity of God the Father as “the Holy Spirit”-
[Isa 63:11-16] Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is HE that put HIS Holy Spirit within him? 12 That led them by the right hand of Moses with his glorious arm, dividing the water before them, to make himself an everlasting name? 13 That led them through the deep, as an horse in
the wilderness, that they should not stumble? 14 As a beast goeth down into the valley, the Spirit OF JEHOVAH caused him to rest: so didst thou lead thy people, to make thyself a glorious name. 15 Look down from heaven, and behold from the habitation of thy holiness and of thy glory: where is thy zeal and thy strength, the sounding of thy bowels and of thy mercies toward me? are they restrained? 16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O JEHOVAH, art OUR FATHER, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.
So scripture taught very early, that God is the Father, and sends HIS Spirit to accomplish certain things. He did not send a “third-person-of-a-trinity” Spirit anywhere.
Later, The prophet Joel established that Jehovah will send His spirit upon all flesh. There is no scripture that will sustain a third-person-of-a-trinity-Holy-Spirit being sent anywhere.
PROPHET JOEL WAS MONOTHEISTIC
[JOEL 2:28-32]
“And [u]it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out MY SPIRIT upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out MY SPIRIT. 30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. 32 And it shall come to pass, that
whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.”
LUKE WAS MONOTHEISTIC
And Luke sustains this concept in the new testament -[ACTS 2:16-21][61 a.d.]
"But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 “And it shall come to pass in the last days, SAITH GOD, I will pour out of MY SPIRIT upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days OF MY SPIRIT; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
MATHEW WAS MONOTHEISTIC
52 a.d. Mat 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. 17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues; 18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. 19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
Mat 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
APOSTLE PAUL WAS MONOTHEISTIC
50 A.D. [I THES 4:8]
“He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but GOD, who hath also given unto us HIS Holy Spirit.”
56 A.D. [ROM 8:11]
“But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by HIS Spirit that dwelleth in you”
JESUS WAS MONOTHEISTIC
Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name.
Luke 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in
heaven, so in earth.
Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
PAUL WAS MONOTHEISTIC
Rom 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Cor 1:3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Cor 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
2 Cor 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.
Gal 1:3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, 4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of the God and Father of us:
Eph 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who
hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Eph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Col 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
1 Thess 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be
unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience
of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
1 Thess 3:11 Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in
holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
2 Thess 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thess 2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope
through grace,
1 Tim 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
2 Tim 1:2 To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
Titus 1:4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
Phlmn 1:3 Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
PETER WAS MONOTHEISTIC
1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
JOHN WAS MONOTHEISTIC
1 John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
Newsflash! CHRISTIANS ARE MONOTHEISTIC
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Trinitarians don’t know that! They are “Triune.” Trinity is the concept that God is three persons in one being. But that
“one being” is singular, not plural. They conflate “Singular” with “Single.”
“Three persons in one single God;” which describes many deital arrangements of the Gods of Men.
But God told Moses to go and lead Israel out of Egypt.
"And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
“And God said unto Moses, egw eim o’ w’n (I AM THE BEING): and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, O’ W’N (THE BEING) hath sent me unto you.
15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.”[Exo 3:13-15 SEPT]
EGW = 1st Person Singular Personal Pronoun - “I”
EIMI = 1st person singular present active verb - “AM”
O’ = singular definite article - “THE”
W’N = singular present active participle -“BEING”
When people take the position that John 8:58 has Jesus “quoting” this verse when He said “I AM” he was claiming to be God, I tell them to go back and read what he actually said, and what Exo 3:14 said, and then to read 3:15 of Exodus.
15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, JEHOVAH (The LORD) ELOHIYM (God) of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.
THEY WILL USUALLY RESPOND WITH “Elohiym is plural, therefore God is a plural unity.”
They do not understand that Hebrew “ELOHIYM” is similar to English “SHEEP” which uses the same form for plural as for singular,12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray."[Mat 18:12-13]
Elohiym is not a count-word for God, it is a word that references “immortals” but is translated God because the translators did not see that Samuel was called “Elohiym” AFTER he died, [I Sam 28:13]
And “Elohiym” is applied to all men, and angels:
Psalm 8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the (Elohiym) angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: 7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field; 8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.
Psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye are ELOHIYM (gods); and all of you are children of the most High.
In John 10:34 Jesus applies this to Himself, explaining how it makes Him “the son of God.” “(all of you are children of the most high”)
What Jesus said earlier
“I and the Father are one” (John 10:30)
What the Jews heard Jesus say:
“I and the Father are one” (John 10:30)
What the Jews said His words meant:
“thou, being a man, makest thyself God.”[John 10:30]
What Jesus said his words meant:
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are (Elohiym) gods? 35 If he called them (ELOHIYM)gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? (John 10:34-36):
The sad truth is, the Jews understood perfectly what Jesus said, because at his Trial, they said “He made himself the son of God.”[John 19:7]
They were just looking for some way to trap Him in His words.
Well, I don’t want this to turn into some alternate reality or the Walmart Theological Institute, but trust me, Christians are monotheistic because they believe in one God. See the creeds.
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I was raised Catholic, and am familiar not only with all the creeds, but also the mass Latin, and the doctrines and Traditions that are considered “On Par with Scripture.”
Athanasian Creed, Hupostatic Union, Apostles Creed, among many.
I studied my way out of Trinity Theology, and can prove Jesus is not and never was God. Theologians developed Trinity doctrine, so the “Chief Bishop” could control all who were Clergy and Non-Clergy by claiming to be “God’s Christ on earth” while Jesus Christ is in heaven."
I can prove Peter was never a POPE, and no other man until 606 a.d. when Boniface III declared Himself “POPE.”
In 451 Gregory attempted the same, and in 452 turned the discipline of the church over to Marcion, and the killing got serious.
God then gave Men a sign of His displeasure, which NONE of them recognized; in 452 began a thousand years of dark ages, till 1452 when the first bibles came off the printing press, and were given to the layman instead of the clergy.
Then began an age of “enlightenment” that continued till we sent a man to the moon. THAT was “Progress.”